Intro: 

Hey friend and welcome to the Trend Report. I'm Sid Meadows. I'm a business leader, coach, consultant and a longtime student of the office furniture industry, and in this podcast we have powerful conversations with industry leaders and innovators and others making an impact in their business and our industry. As you know, my goal is simple to provide you with valuable insights, information, resources and tools to help you grow and your business grow, and to help move our industry forward. So let's dive into today's conversation and I'm excited to welcome Kelly Colón with Eledex Coaching and Consulting.

Sid: 

Welcome, Kelly, how are you?

Kelly:

I'm good. How are you?

Sid:

I'm doing really good, and I'm glad we were able to make this connection, because we've been trying to do this since Neocon 2025.

Kelly:  

I know which is wild.

Sid: 

But you're busy and we're going to talk about busy because you are super busy, I'm busy, and then we had some hiccups, but hey, such is life and just making sure we're trying to balance everything. Speaking of life, if you don't mind, share with us what it is that you do, because you are definitely a figure that people know and people recognize and you have a voice that you share quite a bit on multiple different platforms. So tell us what is it that you do?

Kelly:  

So I am first and foremost a professor. So I teach at several colleges and universities in and around the Boston area. I've been doing that now. I did the math the other day and I almost died, I think it was. Like 13 years I've been in higher ed which is just so shocking to me and teach courses in everything from business to built environment, to operations, you name it. So that's one hat that I wear. My company, that Eledex Coaching and Consulting, what we provide is predominantly executive function coaching support, for the greatest sort of cohort is that college age student. But we really work with middle school, high school, college and even adults who are neurodivergent, often late diagnosed neurodivergent, who are just seeking some neuro affirming coaching support. So we provide one-on-one coaching, we provide workshops, you know, sort of educational opportunities to make sure that we are elevating people's awareness around this. So that's predominantly what my company does.

Sid:  

All right. So I have a question for you, because you used a phrase and I'm not sure that I fully understand. I want to make sure that the people listening understand it too. What is executive functioning?

Kelly: 

So executive functioning. 

Sid: 

Did I just open up Pandora's box?

Kelly: 

It's kind of a Pandora's box, but it's good. So executive functioning is neurological skillset essentially, and so we work with predominantly neurodivergent individuals, mostly those who are. ADHD seems to be the largest cohort of individuals we work with. ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder that is centered around a deficit in executive functioning. Now, executive functioning are skills like planning, problem solving, organizing, self advocacy, self-awareness, working memory, self-awareness, working memory, and so they are cognitive functions that are oftentimes delayed or completely deficient in certain individuals, and what we do as executive function coaches is we provide guidance around if somebody's really struggling with time management or organizing or problem solving, things like that. We can't magically give them a pill or something to make it all go away, but we provide tools and scaffolding and other ways that they can maybe either bypass some of the challenges they're having in executive functioning or different tools they can use to elevate sort of what they're challenged with. So executive functionings are those skills inside that we all possess, and that's the other thing I think a lot of people.

A misconception that people have is that only neurodivergent individuals struggle with executive functioning, those skills which are predominantly housed in your prefrontal cortex. Those skills are. We're not born with them, we develop them over time and we continue to iterate and develop as our brain grows, and typically the prefrontal cortex, the area of the brain that we're talking about, is under development until their mid-20s, and so that's just status quo for everyone. I mean, whether you're a neurodivergent or not, people who are neurodivergent continue to experience challenges in several, all or one of these executive functionaries, and if you are successful navigating these, there are certain life things that happen that like, let's say, for example, working memory has always been fine, and then a woman who's neurodivergent who hits menopause, they get brain fog, they can't remember anything, and so that is a hit to their executive function of working memory. So this is something that every human will struggle with at some point in their life. That was a long answer.

Sid:  

No, no, no. Thank you, I think it brings clarity, because we want to make sure the context is right. I don't want to let you go on without understanding it, for me and for the listener's benefit too. So basically what I want to reframe it what I heard you say was you provide tools to work with the diagnosis, not against or for. Is that correct?

Kelly:  

Yeah, and this is, I don't want to say, a bone of contention, but what you're speaking about is what we would call neuroaffirming, and so this kind of dances on a clinical conversation.

Sid: 

Hey, don't go too deep, because I'm not that clinical. Let's just be making fun of myself.

Kelly: 

Well, but I think it's important because if you think about like someone who says I have whatever, or I am autistic, I have ADHD, whatever the ending part of that is usually that means they have a clinical diagnosis, which means they've met with a doctor, they've gone through the evaluation process. Now what is really important, I think, for listeners to understand is I'm not for or against the clinical process. In order for you to get certain treatments, you have to have a clinical diagnosis. The challenge is the clinical diagnosis is based on a ideological view that is based on neurotypical assumptions that if your brain is anything other than normal, you are deficient, and it looks at that deficiency as a pathology that needs to be cured Right, as a pathology that needs to be cured, and that's fine. And it stems from these diagnostic criteria that doctors use and it ties to medication. It ties to a whole host of things.

But the underlying concept around sort of the clinical diagnosis is that it looks to abnormalities I'll use that word as a pathology that needs to be cured. We see neuroaffirming, which is what our practice does, and how I approach the concept of neurodiversity and neuroinclusion from a neuroaffirming lens, which means we understand the clinical side of how this is diagnosed. But we see neurodivergence as a strength and to try to capitalize on the strengths and the uniqueness of each one of those and try to support and work with that brain and not look at that brain as a pathology that needs to be cured. And so there are two different lenses of the same coin and you need them both. But we're not clinicians, so we don't sit in the clinical side of the world.

Sid: 

No, I really appreciate that explanation. I think it gives a lot of clarity to what you do. And going back to that question about what you do, so we talked about you're an adjunct professor at two different colleges. You're teaching on a regular basis. You have a full-time coaching and consulting practice. You left off that. You're a pretty powerful content creator and you're putting out tons of content right on multiple different platforms about this particular topic and you're a mom of a blended family of eight. I don't think you're very busy. Do you need something else to do, Kelly?

Kelly: 

Well, I'm also an author, so I published my first novel a couple years ago, and I'm working on book two and three right now, so-. In your spare time In my spare time.

Sid:  

So what's the first book?

Kelly:  

So the first one is called Life Interrupted, which is essentially a spin on the early days of the pandemic, and so it's sort of this creative story that's based in sort of historical fiction lightly. But yeah, I published that two gosh, has it been three self-published Two and a half years ago. So I hybrid published.

Sid: 

Okay.

Kelly: 

And I don't know if these next ones will be self-published, hybrid or typical traditional publishing.

Sid: 

What's the next book? You don't have to give us both of them, but like what's the next book about?

Kelly: 

So the next book actually is a book I'm close, very close to finishing. It's based on another real life place with Rex Miller. Do you familiar with Rex Miller?

Sid: 

Am I familiar with Rex Miller? He's been on the podcast four times times. He lives not too far from me. I was on my walk yesterday and he called me and we chatted for an hour. So yes, I know Rex Miller. So do a lot of other people know Rex Miller.

Kelly:  

So this book is on an inn that is in Glen Rose, Texas, and it's essentially a spin on sort of the Underground Railroad based on some real stories.

Sid: 

So is it a bit historical? Yeah, so I'm going to his ranch in April.

Kelly:  

Are you staying at Inn on the River?

Sid:  

I might now, because we're going to go and we're going in the afternoon. I have a friend going with me. We're going to spend the night down there and it's called what Inn on the River?

Kelly: 

Inn on the River. Yeah, which is the name of the book. The book will be called Inn on the River and it's really around the story of it's based, I would say closely historical fiction again, but sort of based on that.

Sid: 

I might be staying there now.

Kelly:  

You have to stay there.

Sid:

There'll be a ghost knocking on my door in the middle of the night, but okay,

Kelly:

And the other one is a memoir, which is proving to be much harder to write, honestly.

Sid:  

So I wrote a book last year, I haven't published it. It's finished, it's not edited, it's in a drawer and I'm just waiting for the right time to there's never a right time, just do it I know, I know, I know there's a chapter or two I want to add to it, since I finished it right like oh, so some life's happened since then and uh.

Kelly: 

So I want to tell you a couple of things, my editor. So lessons learned, and I'm not like I was. I didn't take writing classes, I mean, I barely graduated high school, but had I known how difficult the editing process would have been before I just dove headfirst into the process, I don't know that I would have done it. It was extremely challenging. I found the editing process more challenging than the writing process, so I will say that. But I'm glad I went through it and everyone has to go through it. But my editor gave me the best piece of advice that I share with anyone who wants to write or create anything. 

I used to say all I want to do is write a great book. I want to write a great piece of whatever. And she was very clear and said that is not my job. That is not your job as a writer. Your job as a writer is to write the words, whether or not it is good or not. That responsibility lies on the shoulders of the reader. And so it was just a piece of advice that I always try to remember in the back of my head that our job isn't necessarily make somebody like what we put out. Our job is to put the content out Again, whether it's a podcast or writing or whatever it is.

Sid:  

That's a really great point. I mean, I'm a content creator, you're a content creator. This is content we're creating today. Right, I'm certainly active on other platforms, but I did hire a coach, a book coach, and I don't want to go down this whole rabbit hole. But where he started with me, I said I already have all this. I said we need to fast forward to like week six in this program.

So then we got to the editing and nobody read my book in the group that I was working with. Nobody gave me any feedback about the book, whether it was trash or great or nonsense or nothing. And then the editor gets it and I get a 15, I get one 15 minute, call the editor and she's not on camera. And 15 minutes what can you talk about in 15 minutes? Right? And in the edit and 15 minutes, what can you talk about in 15 minutes, right? And in the edit, she's ripping me a new one about why I'm using a hyphen. I'm like I don't know, that's just how I write. It's called something. Now it's not just a hyphen, but it's a dash and I just I don't know, I just use it. She said, why do you use it?

And then I was telling a story about something that happened in my life, because where'd you learn this? I went. 30 years of experience is where I learned I need to know exactly where, when, what book you read. I'm like I can't tell you that. So that was the point that I stopped. Actually, I said you know what? This isn't working for me and I need. I need more than what you're giving me and all you. I feel like all you're doing is changing the message of the book, and I don't want that. So I stepped away from it.

Kelly:  

My last chapter of my first book is actually the third or fourth iteration, and the first time I got it back I just got a big giant red X through the front and all it says is try again. And I was like, oh my God, and it was like 75,000 words. At this point I was like I can't write anything else.

Sid: 

Try again.

Kelly: 

Try again. Big red X I was like that's awesome.

Sid: 

Okay, enough about book writing. We can talk about this topic for a long time. I would be interested to know if any of the listeners have written a book or are thinking about writing a book, and I'd love for you to reach out to me and tell me about your book writing story. So, Kelly, we met at Neocon and I had a friend grab me and say hey, you got to meet this lady, Kelly. I had somebody else come and say I just met this lady on the elevator. You got to meet her. And then we did meet you and I mean, Kelly, you're memorable figure. You're kind of tall, you got spiky, gray hair, you got tattoos, you're very extroverted and people know they can't forget you, which I think is an amazing trait. But based on all your background that we've talked about so far, I would love to know how did you get into the furniture industry? What brought you here?

Kelly: 

So my background is actually in the built environment. So 25 years property management, real estate brokerage, you name it facilities, operations that's my formal education and what I would say is like my formal career. So the only thing I really knew about furniture was how to basically put it out to bid, how to install it, how to modify it, whatever Yep, during the pandemic, how to install it, how to modify it, whatever. During the pandemic I met a woman who sort of took me under her wing, and at that point I was doing a lot more strategy and consulting more program management, and so she worked for a furniture manufacturer and so she sort of took me under her wing, became my mentor during the pandemic. I just adored her. 

She's long retired but she had an opening on her team, on a workplace strategy team for this manufacturer, and so she was adamant that I'd come work for her. And after three months of telling her no, anybody who knows her would understand she doesn't really take no for an answer. And so after three months I joined her team and even though we were in the furniture world, our specific team really didn't do much with regards to furniture in their manufacturing. We really sat as sort of a customer industry facing entity to talk more about design implications, trauma-informed considerations, neurodivergent considerations and how you would represent supporting those initiatives through furniture and design. And so I worked with them for about a year and a half, almost two years, and that was really like the first time I kind of got any insight into sort of the furniture manufacturing kind of world from that lens.

Sid:  

So what's the like? I met you at Neocon. So in today's world you're not really doing that necessarily. So why do you come to something like Neocon Just to reconnect with old friends, see new cool stuff?

Kelly:  

Well, I mean that's a big piece of it, right. 

I mean I've got my world has just, you know, for over 25 years kind of lived in that.

But I think, most importantly in the last several years, the reason that I go is based on the work that I do and what I know of supporting neurodivergent individuals. Our built environment has a tremendous impact on and I think most people know this mental health, wellbeing, things of that nature. And so seeing kind of what's coming out there from a product perspective and understanding, oh that product's great, oh that one would be super detrimental if put in a classroom, right so I think it's helpful from an awareness perspective to see what is our industry continuing to suggest putting into our built environments. And then I sort of layer that understanding with what I know of neurodivergence and sensory integration and what people need to sort of navigate holistically in an environment. And then I still have clients who hire me as a consultant to come in and work with them. Whether it's a design firm or an actual client who's trying to create a neuro-inclusive environment. They'll have me come in, sort of a special consultant and help look at some of these products that they're specifying in their space. So that's kind of why I still go. It's important to stay informed, diversifying in their space. So that's kind of why I still go it's important to stay informed.

Sid:  

So we talked in just a few minutes ago about what is neurodivergent and basically is a diagnosis of something like autism, ADHD and other things that basically give you a superpower. But the title of this episode is why do neurodivergent is not a trend? When you ask people about trends within our industry whether they're furniture trends, design trends, built environment trends that's always on the list. So why is it that you feel like this is so popular today? Like why is it people consider it a trend and argue if you don't think it's a trend, please, and then why is it so popular?

Kelly:  

Well, I mean, I guess it is a trend. I get frustrated by that mildly enraged actually because over the years 20 years ago people didn't talk about this kind of stuff right. So there's this discussion that, oh, our rates of diagnosis are increasing and there are more autistic individuals, there are more individuals being diagnosed with ADHD, and I actually don't know that that's really so. They're saying that it's a trend, an upward trend, but I think, when you look at what influences a trend, our diagnostic criteria has changed, the stigma around mental health and well-being has changed. Criteria has changed, the stigma around mental health and well-being has changed, and so, as we learn more and more around the neuroscience of how the brain works and we expand our awareness in these areas, you're going to capture a larger percentage of the population. Do I actually think there are more people that are running around who are cognitively different? No, I just think we have better diagnostic criteria that make it easier for us as a society to see when people are deviating from the norm, and that is a big piece of it. 

Neurodivergence and everyone. The big buzzword was neurodiversity, which is just the silliest word I've ever heard. But neurodiversity and being neurodivergent really stems from you know anyone, anything that is divergent from norm or different from the normal would fall under that divergent umbrella, and that can be anything from something that's acquired. So think about like an acquired, you know, neurodivergent. So think of like a TBI, traumatic brain injury or stroke, right, those, those would be acquired. Concussion is a temporary challenge, right? So you can have an acquired cognitive difference. And then you can have sort of genetic, which is where a lot of this other stuff that we typically hear so much about autism, ADHD, dyslexia, those kinds of things. But basically what it's saying is whether it's acquired or genetic, it's different than the norm and so that would be neurodivergence. And do?

I think more people are having to have conversations? Yes, and I actually am glad about that, because people are shying away from the stigma and they're starting to ask for things, and I think the pandemic had a big piece of this too. People are coming back to co-located environments. Whether it's five days a week, four days a week, it doesn't matter how many days a week, but now they're coming back and saying I have a greater awareness over the needs that I have emotionally, psychologically, physically for me to be able to operate at my best, and they're advocating for that, and so I think, as companies are seeing an increase in demand for inclusive taboo word now, but an inclusive environment where people can feel like they can be their most productive this conversation has to sort of start happening and continue to happen.

Sid:  

Well, okay. So I want to go back for just a second. This is obviously a passion for you. You've mentioned publicly that you are neurodivergent, that several of your children are neurodivergent. You and I are relatively close to the same age bracket. At what point were you diagnosed, or did it come to you that, hey, I feel a little bit differently. I need to go talk to someone, or were you ever diagnosed officially?

Kelly:  

So yes, it was much later in life, like in my 30s.

Sid:  

Okay.

Kelly: 

And so my older daughter is neurodivergent. We knew that that was happening. She was born in 97. She has ADHD. She had anxiety sensory integration. She was a preemie. So we were involved in early intervention IEP process, early days, right, we're talking like 90s, late 90s, early 2000s. Then my next daughter came along. She was never diagnosed until she was in her, I mean, the last couple of years. 

She's 22 now and so, despite having been in that world, I myself didn't know that I was because I was dealing with my older daughter, my second daughter. We didn't, didn't realize what was going on, and it wasn't until my son got diagnosed. He was born in 2004. Five years later, we are at our wits end, sitting at Tufts Floating Hospital for Children, in their Center for Children with Special Needs, going through an extremely emotional, absolutely catastrophically exhausting process of evaluating our son. And it wasn't until then, having already gone through this with two other kids and been in the system, no one ever explained to us that this was genetic and so he was I mean again, born in 2004,. Five years later was when we finally sat going over his evaluation, and I will never forget it as long as I live. The behavioral pediatrician said to me. You know that his diagnosis is genetic. So which one of you mom or dad are also ADHD? And I was like, what she's like? Have you guys ever been tested? 

And I was like this was the first time I'd ever heard of this being something that was passed on, you know, through the generations.

And so the person who did my son's evaluation she had asked them, you know, would you be willing to sit with them? 

It can't be a formal diagnosis, because we work with kids, but it would be helpful for us to know. And so that was really the first time, and I will never forget afterwards, when she brought me back into the room and she said wow, I don't know about dad, but pretty much I mean you need to go see your own like adult doctor, but based on all this criteria, like you have all of these things as well, and your son likely got them from you, and so you know, which was both a relief, like, oh, I'm not just stupid, I'm not just I can't, it's not like I can, just there's a reason why I struggle in these certain areas of my life. And then the second shoe drops like, oh, my God, I've passed this on to my kid and you know. And then there's the regret and the sort of other traumatic side that happened. But it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I had any idea that this was going on.

Sid:

So when I was a kid, people my parents, even you say I was hyperactive and I talked a lot, which, ok, I talk a lot. Sorry, but that's me Very inquisitive, right, I've never gone through anything that would be any test. I probably have ADHD. At this point in my life, I don't see the need to go through it. ADHD at this point in my life, I don't see the need to go through it. I don't know that there's anything going to help me live a better or different life. I guess is what I'm. You can tell me I'm wrong. I don't know that I have it. I have several friends that I know that have it. I know one that talks about it a lot and he references oh, that's my ADHD brain kicking in today. I know he's working on ways to try to get off his medication, but I do think that bringing this back, it's new in its evolution of being diagnosed. People are being diagnosed later.

The research on this particular topic is continuing to be ongoing and improving and in our industry people are talking about it more and people are telling you there's now a certified autistic resource certification out there that furniture can get their brands talking about how this is a great place for neurodivergent right. I think most people listening know Kay Sargent at HOK. She's writing a book or a book coming out about it. She's been one of the most vocal this month, I think yeah, this month actually this is March when we're recording this she's been one of the most vocal spotlighting it.

I guess you've answered this already, but you briefly talked about it a second ago. But I want to dive a little bit deeper. Let's talk about the connection to the office, the connection to the space, and then from there I want to talk about the connection to the space and then from there I want to talk about the connection to furniture. So talk about it first as the connection to the office and why it's important to design with this in mind. 

Kelly: 

So I can't really have this conversation without talking about sort of my upbringing. I was, by experience and formal education, trained in traditional practices Like if you're building an environment, if you're creating an office, it's here's your Excel program and here's your space planning program. You've got X Y Z people. You need X Y Z square feet. So I, but not by license.

Sid: 

This is how many conference rooms so for clarity, you're an interior designer by education, correct? 

Kelly:

So I, but not by license.

Sid: 

But okay, but by education, yes, okay, yeah, so I, but not by license, but okay, but by education.

Kelly:  

Yes, okay, yeah, so I have an undergrad in interior design, I have a bachelor's in facilities and operations and a master's in facilities and operations. So that's sort of my world Got it. But I think programmatically we historically from a design, facilities, operations, construction perspective, it was formulaic, right? If you're building a tower, you're building a tower, if you've got 60,000 square feet, you got 60,000 square feet. What's the core? Like it was a mathematical equation Human beings, in their impact in that environment were, if they were thought of at all, were either value engineered out or just not even thought of at all. 

And so, you know, we saw this in high increases in mental health and, you know, depression, suicide I mean the construction industry has one of the highest rates of suicide around. Then you have, you know, depression burnout. We saw this and it continues to rise. So you ask yourself, well, what is driving that in our built environment? And it doesn't matter whether it is your office, I mean our classrooms don't even get me started on our classrooms in the United States. They are the most horrific design, mostly because they do not even consider the way that the brain learns. And so we have environments that are dysregulating human beings' nervous systems and I think part of the comeback to the pandemic piece, our built environments have not historically considered human needs physical, emotional, psychological needs. We've just not done that. It's about program, it's about product and it's about price. I mean, that's really-.

Sid: 

It's about money. Yeah, it's about cost per foot, right.

Kelly:  

Right, and so we've not really considered the people in this piece like the four pillar the fourth leg is throughout with the baby in the bath and so people had the pandemic. They went home. When people went home, all of a sudden and this is a gross generalization but all of a sudden humans are like holy God, I had no idea how dysregulated I was. I had no idea how, cognitively, the cognitive load of operating an environment that was not designed for my well-being, I had no idea the negative impact of that. So you had all these people that are coming home and all of a sudden their productivity increases, they can create the environment that actually makes sense for their brain and body. And now you've got people saying come back to the office. And I think this is part of that earlier question of like, why is everyone talking about it? Because people have learned over five years. Not only are they learning about their own brain, but they're learning about how they operate, what they need in their environment to be successful, and they want to replicate that in the workplace. And so now all of a sudden it's not just about program place. People have to be back into the equation, and so I think that's part of the reason we're having additional conversations around this.

But if you think about the elements from design, like I don't know, I was working with a client that had an internal stairwell between multiple levels and on the stairwell there was glass on either side with a railing, and people weren't using it. There was a high percentage of neurodivergent individuals who were asking for sensory considerations in their workforce. That's a general point of reference. Okay, and no one was using their interconnected stairwells. Why? Because the riser on the stairs was see-through, so it was just wood, and then there was glass, so the stair looked floating.

Sid:  

Beautiful, looked gorgeous gorgeous, design-wise, yes, stunning no one's going to use it.

Kelly:  

And if anybody has any awareness around neurodiversity or global dyspraxia or sensory integration, proprioception issues, these are all considerations with the human body. It's no surprise if they have a large percentage of neurodivergent workers. They're not going to use it because they can't regulate where they are in space and time, so they're not going to use that stair.

Sid:  

Okay, so let's be practical for a second. How would you fix the staircase?

Kelly:  

I would take the glass down.

Sid:  

Take the glass down on the side and the riser.

Kelly:  

I mean definitely on the side. So people have a guard, like think about the think about like driving on a road or walking down a hallway. So you've got what we would call reference points in your visual field. And if you are neurodivergent and have executive function challenges, specifically within proprioception, which is where your body is in space and time, you need those reference points to know where to walk. So if you just have glass, they can't see. So there's no reference point makes a lot of sense you know, and do you have to put a? 

you know a solid thing? No, do you. Do you use some sort of uh frosting on it?

Sid:  

yeah, could you make it blue, for example?

Kelly:  

right, just not clear ways you can remedy it but that's why people weren't using it and it was not out of negligence. It was a gorgeous design element, but no one really thought because there was. There still is a lack of foundational literacy around neurodivergence that has not transcended the design construction you know, or even our vendors, for that matter, furniture manufacturers. So you're designing products in the absence of foundational literacy, which is negatively impacting people's ability to use that space.

Sid: 

So one of my questions that I did want to ask you was why do you feel there are so few people talking about this? Because it is really important? What you just said, I think, is the core of why this is so important. Right, but why are so few people talking about it? Is it truly just a lack of understanding? I mean, I'm certainly not someone that can speak on this in an educated fashion, which is why people like you come on my show. Right, but why are there so few people talking about it? I could name all of you on one hand.

Kelly:  

Right, but why are there so few people talking about it. I could name all of you on one hand, honestly. Well, I mean I think currently I mean when we had talked a while back I had a different answer, but I think currently there is a massive hit to our industry socially. The diversity, equity and inclusion they're like, not words. People want to talk about diversity, equity and inclusion. They're like not words.

Sid: 

People want to talk about.

Kelly:  

And unfortunately and this work falls often under that inclusionary practice and so I think, for individuals who might have been dipping their toe into the water of these topics, they've retreated in the last six weeks, which is actually heartbreaking for me to see, and I understand why because there's fear around it. 

Right, they don't want to keep talking about it which almost escalates the responsibility for myself and individuals like Kay Sargent and others to make our voices louder, because there are still so few people who are willing, especially now in the current political climate, to have these conversations. 

It's not sexy, I mean. Imagine if you're a CEO with all good intentions and they want to create a neuro-inclusive environment, something that supports their workers cognitively, emotionally, physically, and so that is their goal. They're doubling down, they want to really create this environment and they hire me and I'm basically going to tell them you're going to invest all of this money, programs, policies, physical modifications, and you're going to get it wrong 50% of the time, even with the best intentions. So how does a CEO digest that? To be able to say to them look, you can create a sensory inclusive environment, but sensory needs are a spectrum, and so you might design for this side or even up through the middle, but there's a large percentage of people you're still not going to accommodate and your environment is going to continue to negatively impact them, and so how do you say that to someone? And so I think there's also a lot less people who are willing to have an honest conversation like, look, we have to do this work, but you're not going to get it right 100% of the time.

Sid:  

So I think that, to your point, this has been politicized more than it should have been.

It's the general public I'm speaking in generals and feel free to disagree with me, Kelly, or anybody listening right, but the DEI, the removal of DEI requirements, are built around the perception of race and sexual orientation and then the perception that, because you are a gay man or a black woman or a white woman, that you got your job because of that and because of DEI programs. 

Now, is some of that exist, absolutely some of that exists, right, but in general, what we've lost is the broader spectrum of exactly what is diversity, equity and inclusion, and it's about creating spaces and programs for everyone, not just one specific. So I guarantee you, and the neurodiversity being left out of this conversation, people aren't thinking about that, right, because they see it as this very. It's been politicized to a point that it's been made to be a very focused attribute and because of that, we get rid of programs that benefit so many people, not just in the workplace, but in schools and other places as well. So it is very sad and I'm going to this is my soapbox for two seconds. I applaud the companies that are continuing to do it, and even applaud the companies that are having to take a position, because some companies are having to actually sign documents that say they've eliminated the program in order to receive funding from the government, which is awful, but yet they're still doing the core of the program without a figurehead of it.

Kelly: 

So I applaud those companies that are still they change the terminology to not hide but to run under the radar.

Sid: 

Sure not get caught right or whatever.

Kelly:  

Yeah, which is sad, I mean, because it's you know, you look at something like ADA, which is what we were always taught the ADA from a design, you know, code perspective, and I think this has been the most frustrating thing personally for me. And I think this has been the most frustrating thing personally for me and one of the big reasons why I left corporate America to do this work is, you know, if I'm in a wheelchair, if I'm missing parts of my body, I can have access to certain things because you can physically see that I have a need and the challenge with neurodiversity and neurodivergent individuals is that that is an invisible disability, but it is no less necessary than a ramp for somebody in a wheelchair. But there are no protections, there are no guidelines, there are no rules. It doesn't exist today. And so you know you're building, you know by code, through ADA, you're building environments that meet those requirements.

But you're not, even if you're going that traditional route and you're not expanding your exposure into these other areas that are what we would call invisible, you are potentially detrimentally and in most cases are detrimentally building environments for humans with invisible disabilities. And why should my needs because you can't see them not be considered in our built environment. I just don't, I don't, which is why I left and I was like I don't prescribe to this anymore. I'm not going to continue to specify product. I'm not going to continue to advise clients on what they should do, you know, to meet these code requirements, knowing a full and well that if I were to be in that environment or my kids were in that environment, we could not function.

Sid:  

So what you're highlighting is and I've heard people say this, I think I've heard you say this which is when you design for neurodivergent, you're designing for everyone.

Kelly:  

Yes.

Sid: 

Because it works for everyone. The example use the stairwell as an example. Just changing the material from clear glass to frosted glass or patterned glass or three-form type acrylic changes the space and makes it available for the neurodivergent, which then it's also available for everyone else. So there's a lot of truth to that. When you design for neurodivergent, you design for everyone.

Kelly:  

Yeah.

Sid:  

And why shouldn't we do that?

Kelly:  

I don't know why I mean we should do it and why shouldn't we do that. I don't know why I mean we should do it and the reality is and I think this is I've had a lot of trainings and conversations in the last year with design firms who think there is some mystical, like I'm going to come in and sprinkle some sort of mystical dust in their office and somehow magically give them like the aha button, and they quickly realize they already have the tools. They understand biophilic design. The only thing they're missing is foundational literacy around neurodivergence. They're not missing a tool. They're not missing a design element. Right, they already have the tools. What they don't have is the context and the foundational literacy on how to layer that into the tools they already have.

Sid:  

Is that something you're teaching foundational literacy?

Kelly:  

Yes, and that's a big part of my workshops.

Sid: 

Got it. Tell me about the workshops. What kind of workshops you do?

Kelly:  

Oh gosh.

Sid: 

 are they available for normal people like me?

Kelly:  

Yeah, yeah. So we do everything from like a foundational, like what? What? Isurodivergence 101?.

Kelly: 

So what does it look like all the way to what are some of the sort of implications to specific neurotypes, like autism? So let's talk about autism. Let's talk about what it means. How do these show up? How do you interact with individuals who may be autistic or who may resonate with having autism? So we'll do specific cognitive training around specific neurotypes. We'll do everything from anxiety training to, you know, looking at the physical environment. What sort of considerations should you be putting in to the environment? So it really depends on what the identified, I want to say deficiency, but what the identified deficiency is from the organization. Who's asking me for that information? But mostly, I would say 90% of our training is that foundational literacy. So like what does it mean to be neurodiverse versus neurotypical? What does it mean to be, you know, to have autism? What does that look like? How do you interact with somebody? What are some of the considerations that a workplace should have or an educational environment should have when they have an autistic population? And so most of it is that foundational sort of literacy.

Sid: 

So you bring up the importance of learning, the importance of knowledge, the importance of empowering yourself with the information and the tools that you need to create the spaces, whether you're an interior designer, an architect or a furniture seller. We all need to know about this, especially the furniture people. We need to know and understand this, which ties directly to you. Got to be a student of the industry and this is, I mean, I feel like we're just scratching the surface on this topic, like I could talk to you about this because I'm learning so much. 

If you're watching on YouTube, you kind of see my face, like I'm intently listening and trying to absorb what Kelly is saying, because it's so very important and it's bringing up aspects of it that I never thought about. Right, and I consider myself a student and I've heard the topic and I've heard about color theories around neurodivergence and I you know people like you talking. So there's a couple of points, one question and then I'll have a couple of points. What advice would you give to the furniture people out there, whether it's a brand or a seller? What's one piece of advice you'd give them?

Kelly:  

Stop building and creating solutions to problems you do not understand.

Sid:  

That's so good. So the message is understand the problem so that you can learn about the problem, so that you can create the space it ties right back to be a student. Right, go be a student, go learn about it, go educate yourself about it.

Kelly:  

Yeah, because if you're going to be creating like, use the classroom example, for if you're going to be specifying product that goes into a classroom and you don't understand how the human brain learns at certain developmental stages, why are we procuring desks and chairs and stuff in there? Because if you don't understand learning, because that's the entire premise for that environment and so why are we specifying desks that feel like prisons and wondering why our students are not learning. Stop designing products that are crap.

Sid: 

But we are the furniture people. We're considered the expert in furniture, but you can't be an expert in furniture. Oh, you disagree with me? Go ahead, come on.

Kelly:  

So here's the thing who is an expert in everything?

Sid:  

Nobody.

Kelly: 

Nobody. And so this is I actually say in sort of solidarity, like people say well, the furniture people should be experts, or the interior designers should be experts, before they start specifying this stuff. And why? Why did anybody take any sort of neuroscience class when they went through their degrees? Where would they have learned that? 

And I just think it's really unfair to say the design industry, architects, interior designers you know, vendors who are supporting this should be the experts. They're already, are experts, we exist out there, they're out there, so why not hire them to be part of an extension of the team? I think it's unfair for us to expect for our industry to be experts when they've never had exposure to this stuff and it's never been part of their formal training. And so do I think we should all be knowledgeable. Yes, that's the premise for my workshops, but I don't think it's fair for our customers to expect us to expect that industry to be proficient when that was never part of the training. Now, on my higher ed hat, that is something I'm pushing because I do believe that our future state designers, architects, engineers, real estate folks I do believe that they should be taking behavior classes and neuroscience classes and psychology classes. It's not currently part of the curriculum in any place that I've been exposed to teaching and I think that is putting our industry kind of in a deficit.

Sid:  

Yeah, it comes right back to education. Right, and continue to educate yourself, and I mean so. At first, I appreciate you disagreeing with me, right, which is great, I love it, right, and I want to keep having this conversation, but we are out of time. Say to you, I appreciate the aggressive approach, vigor, if you will, of how you share your message, and there's a lesson to learn from Kelly about being passionate about a topic, whatever that it is, and sharing your voice about it and sharing things that positively impact people and businesses and our industry. So don't stop doing it right, and I'm encouraging everybody to do it, I do it.

I talk about personal development and growth and the importance of that. I talk about leadership and how you have to be the best leader you got to lead yourself first, right, before you can lead people. Don't stop Keep yelling. Get on top of two chairs if you have to, or three steps on the ladder, Kelly, because I have appreciated getting to know you, the connection, the passion of which you speak, the authority at which you speak on a topic that we can all learn from. So we all have to get better at embracing the things we don't know and we don't understand, to learn so that we can each do our job better. Thank you.

Kelly: 

Thank you.

Sid: 

I appreciate you being here today. I mean, this is such a great conversation and I may have to have you back so we can keep this going on, but thank you. I hope that all of you got some amazing value. You learned something today about neurodiversity and design and trends that can help you in your business and help you grow. Kelly, if our community would like to get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Kelly:  

Well, I'm all over all social media platforms TikTok, Instagram, all of those but you can also reach me on my website or through LinkedIn and my email.

Sid: 

I will drop all of that into the show notes Guys, if you're on TikTok, go give her a follow on TikTok, she does some great videos. And on Guys, if you're on TikTok, go give her a follow on TikTok, she does some great videos. And on LinkedIn. Please remember that if you reach out to Kelly, let her know that you heard her here on the Trend Report and that's why you're reaching out, Kelly. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I look forward to it. I hope I'm going to see you this year at NeoCon. We'll get a picture together. And thanks for being here today. Go out there and make today. Make today great, everyone, and we'll see you again in a couple of weeks. Take care.

Kelly: 

Thank you.