Intro:

Hey friend, welcome back, or welcome to the Trend Report. I'm excited that you've joined me for today's conversation. I'm Sid Meadows. I'm a business advisor, coach and longtime student of the office furniture industry, and my goal is to share information that helps you and your business move forward each and every day. And I'm excited for today's conversation as we dive into the specific vertical markets that can help you accelerate your growth, with my guest today, Sara Marberry.

Sid: 

Hey, Sara, how are you?

Sara: 

I'm great, Sid. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Sid:  

Well, I'm excited to have you here because you have an expertise in a very specific vertical that I'm really interested in exploring how it can help people grow their businesses and I think we actually got connected a couple of years ago. I know I've been following your content. I don't know, Sara, have we actually ever met in person?

Sara:

I don't think so.

Sid:  

I'm not sure that we have.

Sara: 

It was kind of during COVID when we first connected, so everything was online.

Sid:

And that part of our world is a blur. Well, we have this little event coming up in a couple of weeks that we should absolutely be able to do that, so I hope to see you there. So, Sara, let's just jump in and get started. So tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do today.

Sara: 

Well, I like to describe myself as a healthcare and senior living design knowledge expert, but I'm kind of this hybrid type of person because I write and I speak about trends in healthcare and senior living, but I also take that expertise and I use it to work with product manufacturers mostly product manufacturers to help them grow their business or promote their products to those specific markets. And I've also worked with nonprofits in the industry and some design firms too, but the majority of my marketing clients tend to be product manufacturers. So I'm this weird person that I have this kind of knowledge expertise that I speak and write about, but then I also do this marketing work. So I'm kind of this hybrid type of individual.

Sid:  

And that's absolutely okay. You've evolved into that over the years of your career. And let's start with your career a minute and let's go way back when you were first getting your start. Tell us how you kind of got into the industry.

Sara: 

Yeah, well, I graduated from college and familiar story I was looking for a job and every job I was looking for. I was a communications major in college and I was looking for a job. I wanted to be a writer or work in marketing or something and of course nobody was hiring anybody. That didn't have any experience.

But finally I came across the Merchandise Mart and I was hired as a communications coordinator at the Merchandise Mart, which is a very low level job and that's really how I got my introduction to the furniture industry, because we worked all the shows at the Mart. We helped produce the shows, we got all the speakers, we promoted them. I mean, one of my first jobs was to call Shaheen Shaheen at I think it was Mohawk Carpet or something like that. He was the president of this big, huge carpet company and I had to ask him if he was coming to the floor covering market and how we could support him. I didn't know how to do any of this stuff, but it was a great immersion into the commercial furniture industry and I really only worked for the mark for a couple of years. It was back when the Kennedys owned it, so there was some interesting stuff going on when the Kennedys would come to town and things like that. So it was a great, great job to really be immersed in a field and an industry.

Sid:  

So, Sara, did you know the industry existed before you went to work at the Mark?

Sara: 

No, I didn't even know what the merchandise Mart was.

Sid:

Other than this really big building on the river right?

Sara: 

Right, it was this big building. But I had no idea and you know the history, the mark is fascinating and the whole you know business model of the mark just fascinated me and of course I always had an interest in design. At one point I considered going to architecture school or design school but didn't ever do that. So it sort of drew me into that world of design and I fell in love with it.

Sid: 

So your career led you to New York, where you got even a little more into our industry. Tell us a little bit about that journey.

Sara:  

Yes. So I actually moved out to the East Coast when I followed my now ex-husband out there. He was working for Prudential. So we moved out and moved to New Jersey and I thought, well, I know all these editors and publishers of all the design magazines because I met them through my job at the merchandise mart and I thought, well, I'm just going to go around and start calling on them and networking and see if any of them will hire me or give me some leads in the field that I was interested in. And a great story I went to meet with the publisher, the then publisher of Interior Design Magazine, Lester Dundees, and he was this, you know, industry icon. 

I mean at the time he was probably almost 70 years old, he'd been around a long time. He built Interior Design, he created the Hall of Fame, he did all this. I mean he was an amazing guy and I went to his office and he was very nice to me but he basically kind of told me well, I don't think you can write for our magazine and because I didn't really have a journalism background but I knew the field and I could write, I had that experience. So then then the next person I met was met with was Len Corlin at Contract Magazine, and he was the editor and co publisher of the magazine and he hired me in a second. He saw something in me that Lester didn't, and so I started to work for contract.

In trade publishing they call you an editor, not a reporter, but basically I was a lowly editor and over the next five years I covered every major, you know furniture trade show in the country and wrote articles on a bunch of different topics you know, including product reviews and project reviews and things like that. So I really got immersed in the commercial furnishings industry from all, all standpoints. And then, years later, after I had left the magazine and gone on to do other things, I saw Lester Dundees at an industry event and he was sitting alone and I happened upon him and I was like hey, Lester, how's it going and everything. And he looked at me and he said boy, I wish we'd been able to hire you when you came to us all those years ago, he says. But we didn't have any jobs and so it's kind of. I thought to myself well, that's not exactly how I remember it.

But, it was nice to be validated all those years.

Sid:

So you fell into the love of writing because you wanted to write and you got into the magazine industry and you started writing about our industry and really dove into it, doing product reviews and things of that nature, covering events and stuff. Sarah, did you have you ever actually worked at a dealer design firm or a manufacturer?

Sara:  

No, I have not. In fact, people all the time think that I am a designer or an architect, or even a researcher and it was like no, I just came out with a marketing degree in college. 

Sid: 

So what I find interesting about this is that there's so many. We talk a lot about our industry and how we attract people into our industry, right, especially new and young people, but you've come into our industry in a completely different trajectory than anybody I've ever talked to from the journalism side that actually never having worked for a manufacturer or a dealer or a supplier, right and I find that fascinating because there's no doubt in my mind as I followed you and your career and your content you are truly a knowledge expert about what it is that you do, and typically we see that from people that have been on the factory side or the dealer side. So I find your story extremely fascinating, which leads me to my question how did you become so passionate about health care and senior living, like, where did that come from?

Sara: 

Well, that's a great story too. It was when I was working for a contract and I was out at a furniture show at the San Francisco Merchandise Mart, which I'm not sure still exists. 

Sid:  

Was it called the San Francisco Merchandise March?

Sara: 

Right, and I was at this party, this man walked up to me, this kind of diminutive little man walked up to me and introduced himself as Wayne Roga and he said I'm a healthcare architect, I'm starting a symposium on healthcare design and I want you to be involved. And, of course, like any editor, I said, well, send me information. I'm looking at this guy I don't know who he is, and I'm like, yeah, send me information. Well, not only did he send me information, he got me involved in being the emcee at the first symposium on healthcare interior design. This was back in 1981. And I was so young I didn't know what an emcee was supposed to do. But we had this first event was held in a tent and about 500 people came and we had a series of speakers and I was the person that got up and introduced the speakers and kind of kept everything rolling and somehow I just, you know, I figured out how to do the job. But that's when I realized that I really loved that industry. 

It was something that was very special was happening in healthcare, because Wayne was one of the first people that was really talking about how we can design the physical environment to enhance healing and well-being and so patients would heal and get out of the hospital quicker. And at that time administrators weren't really interested in that because they made more money keeping patients in the hospital. But then that all changed because there were some government initiatives called DRGs that changed and it then became more cost effective to get patients out of the hospital sooner. So Wayne really was kind of timely in talking about this, but every single person at that first symposium was so passionate about what they were doing and so passionate about looking at how we can create better healthcare environments. It was mostly healthcare at that first symposium.

I don't think there was really anything in senior living that we covered there, but we did start to pull more of that content into the symposium. But I became involved in the symposium as a result of that and I served on the advisory committee and then later was instrumental in founding the Center for Health Design and so I just got immersed in healthcare and it became a passion because I really felt like you know, we know that design impacts our life everywhere home, office, whatever but in healthcare where people are compromised, or senior living, where people are aging and their bodies are changing, their mobility are changing, their cognitive abilities are changing, it has a different meaning to create environments that can support people. So it really resonated with me and I just jumped into it with all four.

Sid: 

Well, it also sounds a little bit like you've been pulled into our industry in a couple of different ways. You have an editor that pulled you into our industry to write. Then you have a guy that pulls you in to start hosting events and our industry grabbed a hold of you and said, yeah, we're not letting go, Sara. And here you are, all these years later, still impacting the way that we do things on your very specific topic. So thank you for sharing that story. I also want to ask you the same question about okay, you started at healthcare and probably back in the time, in the 1980s, senior living wasn't very much of a big topic, right, it certainly wasn't the need that exists today. So when did you start that through line from healthcare to senior living? When did that become another important topic to you?

Sara:  

Well, the other thing that I did in conjunction with the symposium there were 10 of them and Wayne had this brilliant idea to record every single session that happened at the symposia, transcribe those recordings.

And then he actually contracted with me because I was not working for the magazine at that time to edit these journals and so I went through every single presentation that for 10 years actually I think I edited it and that was really my healthcare design education. But along the way we had senior living in there too. We had the great Maggie Calkins early on talk about her research in Alzheimer's patients, and so it was always a thread running through the topic at the healthcare design symposium. But then at the Center for Health, when I was at the Center for Health Design and we started the Environments for Aging Conference, that kind of brought me into that topic area a little closer and I learned even more about it and I just became interested in following more of that industry and there were a lot of crossovers in hospitality with senior living. But it wasn't really anything that the magazine contract covered when I was there. So it really sort of evolved as my editing these journals and just absorbing this information in the industry.

Sid: 

So you've mentioned three things here that you've had a significant role in starting and or leading in our industry, and some of them are still around today. So the first one was the healthcare symposium like you were instrumental in that, which then led you to the Center for Health Design, which is still an important organization in our industry today. You started that, I think, is what you said and then the environments for aging. So I mean, you've got little footprints all around our industry and impacting, and I think that's great. So, Sarah, when did you say, all right, I'm done with all this. Now the next chapter of my career, if you will, is going to be Sarah doing what Sarah wants to do. So when did you kind of go out on your own as an entrepreneur?

Sara: 

Well, it actually happened a long time ago because I only worked at Contract for five years. I left contract because, well, they wanted to make some changes and the publishing industry was just tanking at the time, and so when I left contract, I knew so many people in the industry that it just made sense for me to start my own business. So that's when I did that. But part of it was I was editing these journals, I was writing books, I was working with product manufacturers. I wasn't solely concentrating on healthcare and senior living back then, but I was a independent consultant for oh gosh, I think it was probably over 25 years.

Sid: 

So, Sara, you've spent many years in your own business helping organizations better understand the healthcare market and the senior living market. What do you see as the biggest opportunity right now for contract furniture brands in this space?

Sara:  

Well, I think, with virtual care now permanent and growing, there's a need for telehealth friendly furniture. This would be things like enclosed, acoustically, private pods for video consoles and telehealth kiosks with integrated lighting and seating and tech mounts and even things like clinician backdrops that are actually professional and calming and branding. And I know a lot of products you know already exist out there like this, but a lot of them are crossover we use them in office, we can use them in healthcare, whatever, and that's okay. But I also think that those manufacturers who have products that are sustainable and a design with a circular economy mind will be increasingly in demand in healthcare and senior living. So those are the two main. A design with a circular economy in mind will be increasingly in demand in healthcare and senior living. So those are the two main.

Sid:  

So you think that the virtual care, as you called it, telehealth it's here to stay, it's not going anywhere.

Sara:  

No, and I think it's going to grow. I mean, yes, that would be affirmative, but I think it's going to grow and it's already changing the space requirements in healthcare facilities and clinics. And you know, I think the whole digital thing is really just going to expand in the, you know, in the next 10 years.

Sid:  

Well, when you think about the younger generation, virtual is something that they're really used to. The older generation, you know, like the baby boomers of the world, including my mom and stepfather, you know, going to the doctor is like a real thing. Going on a video call to a doctor would freak them out right. They'd be like no, no, no, that's not like I really seen the doctor. I have to go into the doctor's office. So I think I've been on a couple of virtual telehealth visits before and I find it very interesting because you typically think about this before, and I find it very interesting because you typically think about this somebody's taking your temperature and your blood pressure and weighing you and all that when you walk into it. And you don't get any of that, but you do get a really nice let's call it intimate interaction with the physician or the nurse practitioner, whoever it is you're talking to.

Sara: 

Well, yes, and I think that the thing that we're not thinking about is there's a lot of rural areas that don't have the same access to healthcare that you and I or our parents might have, and so, and there's been a lot of rural hospital hospitals that have closed in the last 10 years. So that's really also for that population and also senior living. I mean, covid taught us that you know, when you're isolated and you have to be isolated, you got to find different ways to interact with the world, and so you know, I think there's a place for it. And of course, the next, you know aging cohort that's coming up. We're all technically, you know, advanced, so that's all going to just explode, I think, in the next 10 years.

Sid: 

So- when we think traditionally about healthcare. So actually my second job in the industry was at a mill care dealership and for those of you listening, I just dated myself. Herman Miller used to have a brand called MillCare which was selling the clinical products into hospitals and clinical, basically a lot of clinical products, you know, medical carts and lockers and things that would go into operating rooms, laboratories, and so I did that for a few years and I mean I got indoctrinated into healthcare. Miller had a at the time had a nurse consultants that would actually were nurses that would travel with you to consult with the hospital about what they're doing, cause they had the language and the terminology down and the knowledge where I did not have the furniture and the product knowledge where she had the expertise of the facility itself and how it operates. 

And so we think about healthcare, we immediately think about hospitals and professional office buildings. I remember my boss at the time saying Sid, just follow the blue signs. There's a blue sign which on the side of the highway, guys, there's a blue sign with a white H on it. That means there's a hospital at that exit. He's like, just follow the blue signs and those are your customers. And I went okay, this is kind of ingenious, right. And so we think about health care as a clinical environment a laboratory, a pharmacy, and going to doctor's office, I'm going to sit on a table, but actually, in health care there's a lot more than just that. So talk to us a minute about the opportunities that exist inside of healthcare, because not every manufacturer or every dealer listening to this has what could be defined as a clinical meaning patient care type product.

Sara:  

Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing is is that there's a lot of administrative spaces in healthcare, a lot of administrative spaces in healthcare, a lot of office spaces. And you know, major healthcare systems built entire buildings to hire, to house their, their staff. I mean, mass General did that and so so, and this was kind of pre-COVID. So now they're all looking at that real estate, saying what do we do with this Because we don't need these many offices. So they're also struggling with the same things that corporate America is struggling with how do we create hybrid workplaces, how do we create workplaces that people want to come to, that they get them out of their home office situation, and so forth. So I think that's the major thing, that it's yes, it's clinical space is really important, but it's also there's a lot of office spaces in healthcare.

Sara: 

And my great story around this is is that years ago for one of the symposia, Wayne Riga decided that he wanted to, we want. He wanted to invite Michael Brill to come and speak. And again, I'm dating myself too, because Michael Brill was one of the first guys that did all the research on office productivity and how you know, specifically around open office, but for years he was the guy who was speaking at every major conference about, you know, office productivity and office design. And when we approached him to come and speak at the healthcare design symposium, he said I don't know anything about healthcare, I'm an office guy.

And Wayne brilliantly said well, why don't you just pay a visit to your local hospital and come back and tell us what you see? And so he did. He went and looked at his local hospital and he came back and said you know, there's a lot of office spaces in hospitals. I can talk to your audience. And so he gave a great talk about, you know, all the productivity things that we should all be looking at in healthcare, as well as what they were looking at in corporate. And then the other thing is that there's also a lot of this is maybe changing, but there's a lot of waiting areas in hospitals and clinics, and so so there's that piece of it where there's the kind of the, the, the waiting hospitality type furniture that goes into it, which you know is similar to a waiting area that you might have in a corporate office, although there's, you know, there's some different requirements and stuff.

Sid:  

You might need a chair that is a wall saver chair right, that goes, that comes off the wall. You might need a bariatric chair which is reinforced. You might need and I forget the appropriate terminology here but one of the stools, but not a stool that you can use to kind of stand up and lean into it for people with hip issues and stuff. It's got a name. What's its name? Called Sarah? No-transcript. Rooms and places are really stuffy and really, you know, the chairs aren't all that comfortable. It's really hard to work if you're going to be there. Are there trends that are emerging to make the experience for the guest better while they're waiting on the patient?

Sara: 

Well, I feel like those of us who've been looking at this for the past 30 years have been talking about it for the past 30 years. But absolutely, I mean you know there's been more. And again, I think that when we're looking at waiting, covid taught us that maybe we don't need these big waiting areas. You know, you can wait in your car. I mean I remember waiting in my car, you know, with my phone, waiting for them to say, okay, you can come in now. But before that it was kind of this trend towards hospitality. Let's create these very comfortable waiting areas that you know have all the plug and play things that you need, so you can come in and plug in your phone or plug in your computer and you can. You can wait and we'll give you a little buzzer and you can. You know when it's your turn to go see the doctor or go to your appointment. You'll be buzzed, but you can stay in this wonderful waiting area.

And the example that's coming to mind is the University of Chicago built a great hospital a few years ago and and it's and they've got this beautiful seventh floor waiting room and it's all windows, so you see the lake, you see the city of Chicago and it's a great space to wait in and they even built like little private areas too that if you needed privacy with your family or whatever wanted that. 

So and I haven't been back to that hospital recently and but my guess is it didn't it didn't really change after COVID that much, because it's such a big hospital and it had that space that I'm sure it's still being utilized as a as a waiting area. But that was kind of kind of a trend. But I see, I see actually that waiting areas are could be shrinking in the future, that we might not need as big a waiting area. But unless you want to make a statement that, hey, you know, we're going to make you comfortable while you're here, we've got this great big waiting area, we've got all these amenities, you know, feel comfortable. But I really feel that because of the you know, the infection things that we learned during COVID and things like that, that people are really looking at different models for waiting rooms now.

Sid: 

So I remember when my kids were younger, we'd go into the urgent care. There would be a sick waiting room and a well waiting room. So if you had a fever or a cough, you went into the sick and the first thing they did was give you a mask when you walk in the door. And if you didn't have that and you were there just for a kind of a checkup or something, you would go into the well. So I like that. 

But let's just be clear Hospitals are here in business to make money and they make money when people buy things, not just when surgeries happen or visits happen right. So there is an opportunity for a large waiting area to create an experience that gives the person that's going to be there for some surgeries take hours and hours right To actually. Maybe you have a Starbucks or a local coffee shop, maybe you have a gift shop, maybe you have a bookstore, maybe you have a Chick-fil-A. They're likely going to go spend money and do things, because if I got there, I'm going to work, I'm going to bring my laptop, I'm going to do something to occupy my time and not think about five-hour surgery that my loved one is having right, but if I forgot my book. I probably would want to go buy a book so I could read a book right, or I go get a cup of coffee. I certainly and I'm not an expert by any means, but I think there's an opportunity here to make the experience in hospital waiting welcoming. 

What my vision? When you were describing I was seeing an airport lounge, because when we go to the airport, I go to the lounge, and so I heard you describing what I visioned to be an airport lounge. So I think that's another opportunity, but I am certainly not the expert. That's where you come in to play.

Sara: 

I think that's another opportunity, but I am certainly not the expert. That's where you come in to play. Well, the airport lounge analogy is great, because I think there are a lot of things that we can learn from other industries. And waiting and access to amenities. Airports are, you know, they're masters at that.

Sid:  

And overcharging.

Sara:  

Yeah, I think that there has been some of that that's been borrowed and used in healthcare.

Sid:  

So, Sara, let's shift gears for a minute to senior living. So this is a topic that in our industry, to a degree I'm generalizing is somewhat avoided by traditional manufacturers and traditional dealers, because it seems to be very specific. It appears to me that a lot of the senior living facilities are buying hospitality-ish furniture directly from the brands that sell into that category. Is there an opportunity for the traditional manufacturer, slash office furniture dealer, to get involved in selling into senior living?

Sara:  

Well, yes and no. I mean again, it depends on, obviously, the types of furniture that are being sold. I mean, senior living is. So there's a healthcare component of senior living which we call residential care, and that would be your assisted living, your memory care, your skilled nursing, and so there's many senior living communities that have all of that built in, including an independent living component. You know so there is that clinical type areas in residential care that you know an office furniture dealer probably wouldn't have the product to go in there. But on the other hand, you know again, there are office spaces in these. You know so, it'd be at a smaller scale, and there's waiting areas. There's waiting, but they tend to be more, you know, obviously, residential focus. 

So you're exactly right in that it's a residential. You know aesthetic that goes into senior living communities, but where I think the opportunity is in senior living. So there's the higher end senior living, there's luxury properties and then there's, you know, for lack of a better, you know, government subsidized housing for those that. And then there's this whole middle, which is a huge market, and so one of the trends in senior living is is developed that developers are looking at are developing communities that don't have as many amenities in them. So in other words, you're not paying for that kind of thing. So they're they're. 

They're, but they're still. They still have public spaces for people to gather. They still have, you know, in many cases maybe even a, a food service area and things like that. So so there are still opportunities for furniture in those areas, but they have to be at a different price point. They have to be at that, you know, to address that middle market. That you know. And when I say different price point, I don't mean something that's not. I mean, I think design at any price point can be good, but I think that that's the challenge is design something at a lower price point that still looks good, that can be used in this middle market.

Sid:  

So I want to describe this a little bit differently, just for clarity for me and make sure the listeners are understanding too. So you have the high-end assisted living, which is basically or let's call it independent living. You're independent, you wanted to move out of your home because it was too much for you to care for the yard. The house was too big, so you move into a facility where you can still drive. You have an apartment inside that, but then it also has community spaces where there's all kinds of activities happening. There's a dining room where they can serve two to three meals a day your package, if you will. You purchase however many that you want. So it's kind of like you're living in a building that's an apartment building but yet designed for seniors that are active, that can still get around and still go all the way down to the let's call the most. It's a typical nursing home, if you will.

My mother is in a. We call it a. It's called a Nichols Center. It's a basically a nursing home, because she's losing her battle with dementia. So she has gone from in the year and a half that she's been there, from walking, talking like she was angry that she was there to. We can barely get her out of the bed and she can barely talk. Just the battle with dementia just continues. But she's got a 12 by 12 cinder block room that's got a bed in it, you know, made by Stryker somebody that goes up and down, an overbed table and a really uncomfortable chair for my stepfather to sit in, and that's really it. So the other end of that, that's the lower end, if you will, but it's really expensive for her to be there, and the upper end is also really expensive to live there. So the middle, what you're describing, is a combination of the two, where maybe you don't need assistance, but yet you want that independence of living in this apartment but you don't need all the services. Is that an accurate description, Sara?

Sara:  

Yes, and once you do need assistance because typically you know people eventually do you're relying on the home care services to bring it in. So it's not being provided by the owner operator of the building. So that's really. And instead of having a program director on staff, the residents might be the ones who organize the programs and take care of that. But it's the same type of spaces that you're describing. It's the, you know, it's the dining space, it's an activity space. They all need tables and chairs. You know, and you know it's the dining space, it's an activity space, they all need tables and chairs.

You know, and you know, in the higher end communities, some of them have theaters, some of them have, you know, really elaborate outdoor spaces. So there's, you know, there's that outdoor furniture component that's brought into it. And the other thing that I should point out too, about senior living and a lot of these communities, we call them communities, not facilities, because who wants to live in a facility? A hundred percent, a hundred percent. I mean, you don't call where you live a facility. No, we don't.

Sid:  

We live in a neighborhood, yes, that's great.

Sara:  

But a lot of these senior living communities that have independent living, assisted living, memory care, skilled whatever, they have the full continuum of services, which my father lives in a community like that in central Illinois. They were built 20 years ago, 15, 20 years ago and they're dated Even the one that my father lives in. It's a lovely community, but I walk in there and I said this furniture is 20 years old, this carpet is 20 years old, this wall covering is 20 years old and it's a different aesthetic and so, in my mind, to attract the next generation of residents senior living customers all that has to be updated and the industry knows it. So there's a lot of updating going on right now. So that's also where there's opportunity in senior living for furniture manufacturers and dealers.

Sid: 

So I love that because there's plenty of opportunities that can be created when somebody is doing an update and doing a refresh. Right Services product. I mean design layouts, I mean there's all kinds of opportunities of our industry there. So during the course of our conversation because what I really wanted to talk about was opening the door into how you can grow your business in very specific vertical markets healthcare and senior living and you've dropped a lot of little golden nuggets here and I want to recap them for just a minute.

So first we talked about healthcare and in the healthcare environment whether it's a hospital, a professional office building, a doctor's office there's several opportunities, both in the clinical environment. If you don't have clinical products, there are brands out there that will help you with clinical products. They will give you the overbed tables that will give you the ability to sell a bed or a recliner, those kinds of things. So you've got the patient care, you've got the workplace, the non-patient care, you've got the lobbies and other common areas. So there's at least three, there's probably a dozen.

But inside of the healthcare arena there's also the casework. We haven't even talked about casework. There's lots of brands that are making, you know, laminate, modular cabinetry that can be. I used to sell a ton of that. So inside of healthcare there's a lot of opportunity. What I would recommend Sarah, please comment on this I would recommend to our dealer community and the manufacturer of the community to have someone on your team, whether they're classically trained as an expert in healthcare or they've just learned it the way you've learned it to really be a go-to expert in the healthcare arena. Would you agree with that?

Sara:  

Oh, absolutely, and I think that you know there's a lot of information out there and it's really easy to train yourself in this industry, I think, because there's tons of people out there like me blogging about it and there's tons of CEUs that you can take. And you know one of my biggest pet peeves about product manufacturers and sales reps when they go to trade shows, they stand in the booth. Go in and attend the sessions, find out what people are talking about. You know, don't just go back to your room and take a nap when show hours are over, although some of us have done that certainly.

Sid: 

We're not going to say you know. Some of us have done that.

Sara:  

certainly we're not going to say him right, but that's you know. When you see people that are you know the sales reps or when they're going to these sessions, at these conferences, you can learn a lot or hire an expert to come in and talk to your team and tell you what's happening. So I think it's incredible important to have somebody at least one person on your team that knows it, but it's also I think it's also really easy to educate all of your team to a certain minimal level of knowledge, which will help the dialogue between the team members.

Sid: 

Sure. So the minimum level of knowledge basically then gets you. You could talk what a clean out space is in a chair, right. But then when the conversation goes too deep, you can grab your expert to come in and really be that force. So you have a government expert on your team, have a healthcare expert on your team, right? Lean into that. You could lean into thought leadership around that. Before I go to the next one, I just want to comment on something you said. I am a firm believer that salespeople in our industry, specifically salespeople in our industry, should be attending CEUs like they were required to continue to do their job. To be, in my opinion, to be long-term successful in this industry, you really need to be a student of the industry, and that means learning, that means educating, because the way we sold a test chair 25 years ago is not the way we're going to sell a test chair in five years, right. So it's going to evolve. So you've got to be that student. Go and learn, absorb that. I so agree with that, Sara.

Sara:  

I think the other thing is that healthcare is a little different because you know it requires a nuanced understanding of the sector's complex ecosystem, if you will, and it's sort of risk averse culture and also evidence-driven priorities. It's also kind of like you can go in and you could talk about all the features, but they want to hear about outcomes. You know what? What are these features going to? What outcomes are they going to produce? Outcomes you know what are these features going to, what outcomes are they going to produce? Because the healthcare decision makers they I mean they care about design, but I think they care more about how a product might improve outcomes. And if you can get that conversation going with them and I'm not saying you need to have hard, fast data, but translate that into you know how this product is going to improve, whether it's patient outcomes, whether it's the bottom line, whatever it is, and I think you can make a case for almost any product improving outcomes.

Sid: 

Well, you got to know what some of those outcomes are, and the way you do that is by research and education right and knowing that information so definitely. Healthcare is a vertical that if you're not currently involved in, you can get involved in tons of resources currently available. And if you are at the Merchandise Mart during Neocon, a great opportunity. Or even at Design Days, a great opportunity to explore the healthcare products that are available. And healthcare goes beyond what I've just described as clinical, non-clinical office building, pob doctor office. There's a big conversation, I think, about where healthcare exists throughout the industry. 

So the least of the opportunities but I still think is an opportunity for the dealer and the manufacturers in our industry is going to be senior living. It's different. It's got a price point you got to be really sensitive to. You've got brands, not necessarily our brands, but you got brands that are historically selling direct to these organizations. But this industry is growing so they're remodeling 20 plus year old spaces. The population is aging. They need more of these, both from the clinical aspect I'm in a nursing home too, I'm independent living right and whatever's in the middle. There's more of them that are needed. So it's growing. So here's a growth opportunity for you to identify where your dealership or where your business could fit into this and to find opportunities to leverage in a sector that's spending money.

Sara: 

Absolutely, I mean, I think the other sort of eye-opening statistic is that current predictions are that by 2030, there'll be a $300 billion shortfall in senior living construction in the US, and so that's due to high interest rates and labor shortages and some other regulatory hurdles. But, you know, and particularly, I think, for more affordable communities, I think the luxury market is still going to be. You know, they're going to fund that and all that. But that means that we have to keep creating innovative models and if we don't, we're going to face a crisis of capacity and affordability in senior housing and, like I said before, with the largest hitting, you know, kind of that forgotten middle. But there's a huge opportunity and a lot of people think well, you know, one of the answers to that is let's stay at home. You know, we'll just, we'll stay at home as long as we can, we'll bring care into the home.

But I don't know about you, but I can't age in the place that I'm living in. It's a townhouse with four stories, you know, and it's great for me now that I'm mobile and I can go up and down these stairs and it actually it helps my fitness. But at some point, if I'm more compromised in my mobility or when I'm 90 years old and I don't want to go up and down all these stairs. I can't age in place here, and I knew it when I made a choice. So to me, the whole aging in place is just one solution. And I still think that we're going to be building communities. We're going to be building different types of housing that's going to address this in different kinds of models, that's going to appeal to tomorrow's you know customers, to the boomers who are more active and are more technologically savvy, and things like that. So there's incredible opportunities.

Sid:  

I also think there's so for the dealers, manufacturers. Listening, Sara just gave you a couple of different opportunities and options of things that you could do, places you could go, products you could look for right. But this is real and a lot of people listening. This is hitting home with them. My mother is permanently in this facility. She will never leave that facility and it's very unfortunate. But he's finally come to the realization she's not coming home. He thought for a long time that she would get better and she's coming home and it is very clear now she is not coming home.

So when I was visiting with him a couple of months ago, he brought up selling the house and buying a new one. And I'm whoa, whoa, whoa. Why do you want to buy a new house? And then I mentioned a independent assisted living facility and he goes what are y'all going to do? Just throw me in there and let me die. And I went it's not that kind of place. So there's this education that has to happen for the older citizens to understand what some of these are. 

But his whole thing is and I think this is really like really getting into understand who the customer is His whole thing is where am I going to go to piddle. Like he's 85 years old. He'll go outside and he'll piddle around in the yard for a little bit. He's got a workshop out back and he'll go piddle around for a little while and then come back in and fall asleep in the chair and watching TV. I mean that's just the MO right in the chair and watching TV. I mean that's just the MO right, but that was his whole thing. He's like I don't want to leave because I don't want to lose my independence. And then where am I going to go piddle if I'm living in an apartment building? And so there's real challenges here, there's real struggles here, and I believe that our industry can help solve this problem, can help fill this $300 billion shortfall, if we just start to look at the opportunities that exist in front of us.

Sara: 

Oh, absolutely, and there's many communities that do have opportunities to piddle. They have gardens, they have other things the residents take care of and things like that, and so it's listening to what people want. But what you said in the beginning is attitude towards. You know you're going to throw me in this place and I'm going to die. There really is a perception of that in our culture, and so that is something that the senior living industry does have to overcome. I mean, my father even once called the place that he lives in a nursing home, and I looked at him. I said, dad, you don't live in a nursing home, you live in a vibrant senior living community. But in his mind it was no different than the nursing home that his stepfather and his mother was in, and even that we say was in. I hear myself talking that's where he lives. It's not that he's in there, correct?

Sid:  

He lives there. He's in it. That's a really great point. Like he's in a assisted living facility. No, he lives at a community that supports seniors A wording there. That's really good actually.

Sara: 

Right, and there's all sorts of different models of you know there's active adult communities and I actually my boyfriend, lives in a building that's an active adult community and it's a 55 and over building and it's not a senior living community with assisted living and all that, but it's you have to be 55 to live in there, but it's a great building and a building like that has it's you have to be 55 to live in there, but it's. It's a great building and a building like that has. It has community spaces, it has a dining space, it has a rooftop, you know pool and other other areas, plenty of places to piddle in that building. So you know, there's there's different models like that that are that are coming along as well. But I think that it's the baby boomer generation that's going to drive some of that change and drive that. But because the generation that your father is, or my father is I'm assuming they're around the same age they just have that concept that this is a nursing home and I'm going to go here to die.

Sid:  

Yeah, 100%, instead of to thrive yeah 100%. 

So, Sara, this has been a fascinating conversation. I hope that the listeners understand the opportunities that exist for growth inside of specific vertical markets, being senior living and healthcare. They are there for you. You've got to identify them, identify your strategy, your plan around it, identify the products and you've got to educate yourself about it. And there's no better resource than people like Sarah that are researching this, talking about this, publishing articles, speaking on this, to follow along to learn about that. So, Sara, with that, if our community would like to get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Sara:  

Well, you can email me or you can also go to my website, and there's all sorts of information about me on my website. You can contact me through there, but email is probably the best.

Sid: 

So we will be sure to drop Sarah's email address and her website address down in the show notes along with her LinkedIn profile. Guys, I will tell you Sara is one of the most active LinkedIn content creators you will find. She's constantly posting articles and thoughts about things and places that she's been, so be sure that you connect with her there as well. Just remember that if you do reach out to her on LinkedIn, let her know that you heard her right here on the Trend Report and that's why you're reaching out to her. Sara, thank you for being here today. I really appreciate it very much. I look forward to seeing you at Neocon. I think episode's airing on the Monday of Neocon. I look forward to meeting you IRL, as they say, in a couple of weeks.

Outro:

Go out there and make today great. Everybody thanks for joining us and we'll see you again right here in a couple of weeks. Take care everyone. Bye.