Hey friend, welcome back, or welcome to the Trend Report. I'm excited that you've joined me today for this conversation. I'm Sid Meadows. I'm a business advisor, coach and longtime student of the office furniture industry, and my goal is to share information that will help you and your business move forward each and every day. And I'm really excited for today's conversation as we dive into the story of creating a brand new product from scratch, with our guest today, Walter Craven, the CEO of Kabin.

Sid: 

Hey, Walter, how are you today?

Hey, Sid, I'm doing well. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thank you, sir. So you and I had the opportunity to meet in real life at Neocon this year. I got to see your product. We met virtually several months before that and you know, before we kind of dive into the whole story of the product, first off, tell us who is Kabin and what is it that you do?

Who is Kabin and what is it that we do? Well, I'll tell you what we don't do. We don't make acoustic pods. We make experiences. We make places where people want to be. Some people have called cab in a back to work magnet. They've called it a first class airline seat and it can be all of those things. And the reason why it's all those things is because we make spaces where people choose how they want to feel, where they feel most influenced and where they feel most productive. So that's what we make. We make productive spaces. It's an amazing feeling that we sell, and we sell experiences.

So I love that you sell experiences and I've had the opportunity to quote unquote experience the pod. So I understand a little bit about what you're talking about and because we're an audio first podcast, we don't have graphics here. Describe a little bit about the pod itself. You said we're not an acoustic pod, but describe a little bit about the Kabin and what somebody could expect to experience when you sit into the Kabin.

A great question. I'll try to explain as best I can. The first thing people see when they approach a Kabin is its unique shape, and so we're really known for the way Kabin looks. Because it is not your normal run-of-the-mill, everyday square box. It is a faceted, unique shape with an apex at the top and faceted walls and what we like to call an alcoved rear section, and there's a reason for that. What we like to call an alcoved rear section and there's a reason for that, is because what it does for the person inside it takes the energy of speaking or sound that's created inside, or your phone or your Bluetooth. It focuses onto the glass, which I'll describe where that is and where it sits in position in relation to the person, and it funnels that energy back towards your head, to your ears. So it has a really unique sound for the user inside. 

But not only does it have a purpose to being faceted for the inside, it has a purpose of being faceted for the outside. So what that means is that when we take a four square box or four walls and we put it into an open plan office space, it increases reverberation, which increases distraction. So it increases sound and distracting sound in the workplace Kabin eliminates that by breaking up foreign sounds. So it's not only good for the people inside, but it's good for the people outside. So that's what it looks like and there's a reason for that shape. 

The second thing people comment on or they're struck by is we've decided to position the person in the Kabin facing outward, and there's a reason for that is because it gives the person that's seated like that connection to their space but yet a certain amount of privacy, because I can't see what you're working on when you're working on your laptop. I can't see who you're talking to on your phone. So that's control. And also that position is a throne-like position, a command position, so you feel in control, like you have choice. So those are the two biggest differences between us and literally everybody else.

Yeah, I totally agree. The forward-facing thing is really unique and very different, and we could talk a little bit in a few minutes about some of the other features, because there's some other things inside of the Kabin that I think are really, really unique. But tell us, how did this idea come about? Because you don't have a traditional quote-unquote story in the office furniture world. Right, you kind of fell into this, but I would love for you to take us back to how did you come up with the idea for this?

Sid, you hit the nail on the head. I'm an unconventional guy that just finds myself in very unconventional situations and I guess I'm comfortable with discomfort. So how did Kabin come about? What's the beginning of the idea? Well, I'll tell you. 

Lockdown, london Two kids, homeschool, screaming at each other at the kitchen table, wife, oil painter, odors of paint, music playing dog barking at the postman, Walter losing his mind. My business just shut. It was declared unnecessary, unnecessary congregation of people. So here I am, looking for the next greatest thing and I'm stressed, I'm unfocused. I have no personal space in my own home, in my own home.

So I started reading and I started thinking and I started developing this prototype out of cardboard that was delivered to my house and with a glue gun, a little bit of glue, some string, a ruler and a knife, I made the first prototype out of cardboard. I took a garden chair that was just an old, rotted out old garden chair and a piece of plywood and I set my laptop on that and I discovered something. I discovered defining space. I discovered that there was an acoustical quality. Even with the cardboard, believe it or not, there was an acoustical quality, but there was a feeling of protection, there was a feeling of control. And I discovered that feeling and I built on it and that's the start of Kabin.

So, as you were describing the things that were happening to you during lockdown, I got a complete visual of life at Walter's house, because that same thing was happening in my house, right.

And everybody else is yes.

Everybody listening knows exactly the chaos that you were describing, because we were thrust into something that was completely unexpected and only supposed to last for a couple of weeks, right, but we know what happened there. But you said I just can't. I just can't do this, I've got to do something. So you had cardboard laying around the house, you started researching, you came up with this idea and, with glue, sticks and a string and a ruler, you created the first ever Kabin and a broken out lawn chair and a piece of plywood, right. So when you did that, what was the next step? When did you go? Oh, wow, this is a real product that I need to figure out how to get manufactured, how to distribute in the United Kingdom. So, like, cause, you live in London, as you mentioned a couple of minutes ago. I didn't mention that earlier. So when was that? Aha, hey, this is something. This is my next thing.

When I found something, when I found that thing, that feeling that, that feeling of of being, of placemaking, you know, of belonging, when I found that I started really doing a lot more research and then really started to tweak the design in terms of the acoustical properties Speaking to engineers online, of course, we couldn't meet. So we started testing models. We started testing the models I was drawing but, more importantly, I was trying to understand what was going to be through the other side of COVID and the lockdown, what was going to happen? And from my reading and my research at the time, there was going to be a lingering stay at home, but likely a percentage return to the office. And so I postulated and thought what of all these people that have discovered, and these businesses have discovered, that people are actually really efficient at home when they can control their environment and they're in a comfortable environment where they can have choice, what is that going to be like coming back to the office? And so, yes, acoustic pods were already there, hundreds at a time, I think 190 when we're going to lockdown, 190 different manufacturers, and I didn't want to copy what they were doing. 

I was thinking about the person. I was thinking about the person I was thinking about. Taking a little bit of home, actually better yet being able to feel like you're at home, feel like you're in control. That's what was missing and that's when I knew we had a product, that we were selling a little bit of personal space that you have in an office, or anywhere for that matter. That was the matter, that was the hit, that's what I understood.

So what was the timeframe from the first conception of the cardboard box version to the first production model? How long did that take you?

So, being in London, we don't have access to a lot of prototype shops and even shops where I could join as a member, let's say. But there was one and it was in deep East London, and so I was aware of this before I had moved to London and I stayed in contact with them through lockdown and then renewed a membership with them because I had a provisional membership. So I did that immediately, I did that online and then I watched when they would open up, and so I think it was about four months it was about four months since that first prototype I bought a couple of MDF sheets, I went to hire a CAD draftsman, got a CAD draftsman, hired an intern, got an intern and got a workshop person within six months after that first prototype in my front room, and then it took us maybe two to three months to build a prototype and a working model. And then what we did was we started to call, as the earth was opening up, as cities were opening up and people were coming back to work, I took some of these early prototypes and actually put them out to play and put them out to test, and that's what I did.

I brought them to architecture offices, I brought them to tech firms and I said tell me what you think, tell me what you like, tell me what you don't like, tell me that you want to throw it out the window the first day after I put it in, I'll be there to catch it on the third floor, down on the street. Well, people started to see the same thing I saw. They started to feel the same thing I felt, and then for the next year after that so now we're at about a year and a half we started to look at productionizing Kabin and that's where we are now in production.

Wow, that's fantastic. So literally it's a grassroots story, from the original concept to finding some place to help you hiring interns and outsourcing CAD and other things to like really get it off the ground. And then you did something that I think used to happen a long time ago, doesn't happen as much today as it really should, which is you prototyped it. You called some firms and tech firms, A&D firms, and said, hey, can I test this product? I want your feedback. Asking for feedback can be really, really hard, right. So through that process, what would you say were the top two or three pieces of feedback that you got that have informed the final version of the product that we see today?

I'm going to answer that question, Sid, but I wanna respond to something that you said. That really, really was a hurdle for me being able to stand in front of someone and to convince them that all feedback is appreciated and that you're not going to hurt my feelings. You need to be honest with me. That is a very difficult thing to ask anyone to do, but especially a Brit. A Brit does not want to cross that line. It's culturally excruciating for them to do that. So it took me a lot of time to figure out how to communicate as an American to a Brit to allow them that space to be honest, and that was a learning curve in and of itself. Remember, we have a very similar language, but it is not the same culture. It's completely different. So, yes, that was a hurdle which we overcame. 

What are one or two of the biggest things I learned? One was price based on our production methodology. We were way out. It was never going to sell. It was never going to sell, and I talked to some dealers who are very, very good friends of mine here in London and support Kabin and have continued to support Kabin because they believe in the mission and the values and partially me I suppose it was never going to sell.

And so that was strike one. I said, well, geez, I spent all these months and all this time and tooling and drawing and we arrived at a productionized piece and they said, well, that's not going to sell. Oh boy, okay, back to the drawing board. Second thing is it was too hard to assemble. It wasn't easy, it was too difficult, it required too much skill, and that was something I completely overlooked. I was in my head and stuck in my head as somebody who was going to put it together, each and every one all around the world, when really I should have been thinking I am not my customer, I am not the transporter, I am not the assembly guy. I need to make this bare bones simple for everybody. So those were two major strikes. The rest of them were about colors and lights and everything else that you could quickly change. But boy, oh boy, those are two big ones that rocked me hard, real hard.

I can imagine that it did, because you've gone through this process and all along you're adding up what is the cost of this and what's the cost of this and how does this happen? And then you're looking at profitability. You're looking at the sales cycle and what goes into it marketing, all this kind of stuff to formulate a price point. And then you hear price is too high, it's never going to sell, right? That's hard to hear for anybody, right? And then the second thing was that and you you kind of admitted you overlooked the assembly, because you are not the customer and there are lots of people in our process, right, and making it easy to assemble. So obviously you've addressed both of those issues since those learnings came about. So how easy, would you say today, the product is to put together?

Much easier. Okay, much, much easier. I mean we are making this more and more easy as the months go on. How did we deal with the price? That was a hard pill that we had to swallow.

For the team and myself, it was a complete redesign on the wall system. We started out with a SIP panel, structurally insulated panel. That was an amazing, amazing series of panels that were CNC routed, you know, in multitudes, and they went together with these special clips and it was really a clever way to go. But it was expensive, delicate, hard to finish. And one day, Sid, one day, I'm in my workshop and I've got my one of my lead designers back at the office. I've got his supporting guy back in the office. I've got the one of my lead designers back at the office. I've got his supporting guy back in the office. I've got the admin back in the office. 

And I talked to the prototype where I said hey, you want to do a little favor for me. He was sure, walter. I said I've got this little drawing here and I showed it to him. I said I've got a CAD file here. I'm going to get some steel walls that are going to be laser cut. I want you to keep this under wraps. I want you to put something together for me. I'll see you in two days.

Came back in two days, had the laser cut panels delivered the day before. He put it together in a matter of minutes and I knew I had something. I sent off those files to our engineer, our sound engineer. I said build me up a similar composite panel system with the same foam that we're using in the SIP panels. And I sound like I'm getting way technical here. But what I did was I reverse engineered this thing on a scrap of paper on the fly over two days and I kept it secret because I knew it was just going to be such turmoil here. And we proved the concept on the shop floor. I took a picture of it, I sent it to the whole team and I said this is the new direction forward. And then from that point we haven't looked back.

So what I appreciate about that story that you just shared is the ingenuity of an entrepreneur to look a challenge dead in the face and say I'm going to figure out a way to overcome this, understanding that it means we might have to, in your case, redesign the product, which is what you did secretly from all of the rest of the company.

So you didn't get a lot of pushback.

I can really appreciate the cloak of darkness there Waves, waves but I think every successful entrepreneur has a story where they had to take a step back and look in the mirror and go okay, though I love this, this isn't going to work for whatever reason In your case, it was the price reason. Though I love this, this isn't going to work for whatever reason In your case it was the price reason and you're able to overcome it. Put together a product that now addressed the two biggest hurdles. You got a better price and much easier to install, and I witnessed you doing some owner installation at Neocons.

You did, you did tune-ups.

I caught you yeah, tune-ups.

Yeah, Sid saw me with a screwdriver in my hand and a couple of other little bits and a cord. Yeah, that's right.

So before we talk some more about the product, I want to come back to you for just a minute. So you mentioned you're an American living in London. How did you get from the San Francisco Bay Area to the heart of London? What made you say let's pick up and move to London, guys?

Oh boy, Sid, I'm going to try to keep this as short and sweet. I'm originally from Boston, Massachusetts, first kid in my family from South Boston, a small little enclave that you may know as bank robbers and thieves Some really great movies out of Southie. First kid to go to school went to Rhode Island School of Design, worked for my dad's company back in Jamaica Plain for about a year and a half and I said you know what? This isn't for me, and so went to San Francisco, spent 25 years in San Francisco, built a few businesses still have a few businesses. I run remotely out there. My wife said Walter, you know, we've got two small children. You're working almost every day. Life is passing us by. I said, okay, I'll go on a European vacation with you. So it was in 2016.

I took three weeks off, visited some friends in France, visited some friends in Italy and then finally in the UK, and after those three weeks I looked at my wife. I said we're doing this wrong. I'm doing this wrong. I work every day doing this wrong. I'm doing this wrong. I work every day. As an American, I'm living to work and as a European, I would be working to live. So I immediately applied for what they call in Great Britain a tier one entrepreneur visa, and that is a visa given out to several hundred people each year. They no longer have it. They ended it, I think, in early 2000. But I was awarded that tier one entrepreneur visa and what that required of me was to start a unique business in the UK, hire a certain amount of British citizens for a certain amount of time and deploy a certain amount of capital, and all of which I satisfied. So why am I here? I'm here because my wife reminded me that we're on this planet to not just work but to have fun, enjoy our family and to be with friends.

That's really fantastic and you listened right.

Yeah, I listened. Yeah, that's probably the one time I listened to my wife.

Sid:

No, no, we'll make sure she gets a copy of this and I can have her on to do a little rebuttal.

Walter: 

Boy Just make sure you give me your address, because I'm going to be sleeping in your doghouse.

But you know it really what it was, Sid was. It was a reminder that we don't have a lot of time on this planet and what we do has meaning and purpose and we better believe in it. And we, as entrepreneurs, give it everything we have, but we cannot leave our family and friends behind. We can't, we can't, we can't. It's too valuable.

So I appreciate that story and the fact that you had the courage to pack up your family, your young family, and say let's go to London and realize we're doing this wrong, and I think that's really important and a lot of us could heed to that lesson. But you briefly talked about Boston and Southie and, yeah, there are some great stories to come out of there and some great movies to come out of there. But one of the things that you didn't talk about is being an entrepreneur, and being a builder of things is in your blood, because your mom and dad had an amazing business for a very, very long time 52 years.

Wow, 52 years, that's right.

Tell us a little bit about them, because their business was very much the heart and soul of that community and the video that I watched, which I absolutely loved, the video.

Thanks, that's a great video.

And we'll be sure to link that LinkedIn post into the show notes so people can go and watch that video, because it was super powerful to be able to capture the story of your mom and dad and what they built and them telling that story is so very powerful.

Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for reminding me of that. I often forget that that document exists. It was back when my father finally realized that he didn't have all the time in the world to move on from his business. It was a very demanding business. It was a heavy steel business and ornamental iron, and it requires a significant amount of physical stamina but also mental stamina. And so my father is a Boston kid, my mom's a Southie girl. Both didn't go to college. My dad only had a ninth grade education, grew up in a very, very poor family in a really rough neighborhood in Boston. 

My dad was forcibly sent to the Navy because he kept getting arrested for doing stupid crimes, though in the Navy. He spent four years in the Navy. He learned how to weld, he learned how to measure, he learned how to think it was the best thing in the world for him. And when he left the Navy he came back out. I think it was early 60s. He started his first business, which was Weld Right Ironworks, and then he met my mom at a dance. They fell in love. They got married, had kids and it was a family business.

After school I would take the train all the way across town. My father asked me to sort nuts and bolts. I would go measuring jobs on the weekend with him. I learned how to weld when I was seven years old and, yes, I still have the scars from all the sparks and me saying, dad, I'm getting burned. And he's like, no, no, no, don't worry about it, it's fine. And so this was a family business. This was my introduction to work. This was my introduction and tenacity. This man and his woman are my heroes. 

There were times where it could have went completely belly up, but what they did was they said no, we're not going to let that happen, we're going to work through this, we're going to work through the problems, we're going to call on friends, we're going to call on family. And that's what they did. And it lasted 52 years. And when they told me that they were going to retire, I said I'll be damned if another small American business, especially my parents, is going to go by the wayside without documenting it, without sharing it, without sharing it with my kids and their great great grandkids. And that's what I did. I sent out two friends who are videographers to Boston, massachusetts, and they spent a couple of days with my parents and they captured all this video. They edited it and we've got this amazing little document that everyone can be proud of, especially me. I'm really proud of my family.

As you should be, and obviously through that time you learned a lot of lessons, things that help build who you are today right and really those lessons are helping you build Cabin and you've captured a very, very powerful story about your family and your history that will live on for generations to your kids, your grandkids, their kids, their grandkids. Like. It's something that I wish more people could and would do, to hear directly from the people that you know do what they did and started what they started, because the story behind I'm going to quote American small businesses is just so powerful, like I'll get on my soapbox for half a second. This past weekend we own a rental house down in a college town, a little small town in deep East Texas called Nacogdoches. My daughter went to school down there and I got new tenants moving in, and so I went down there to do. A little small town in deep East Texas called Nacogdoches. My daughter went to school down there and I got new tenants moving in, and so I went down there to do a little work around the house and get up. 

Every morning I go for a walk and I the hotel I stay at was right in the heart of downtown Nacogdoches. A lot of people jokingly call it Nacognowhere because it is the oldest city in Texas named after an Indian chief. It's just a great little hotel. The hotel's called the Fredonia. It is furnished with classic pieces from Miller and Knoll, which is absolutely fantastic. You walk in and I'm like, holy moly, like this is East Texas. 

But anyways, I'm on my walk and I'm walking through downtown and I see all these little shops and I see this shop and I see that shop and I just I paused and actually took a picture and I was reminded on my walk not that I needed to be reminded, but I was reminded on my walk the importance of small businesses in the United States and why I'm an advocate for small businesses. 

Because every day we have a choice right. We have a choice that we can go to a big box store and we can buy a birthday present, or we could go downtown to where a lot of the, in this particular case, where all these local shops are owned by a mom and a dad or two sisters or a mom and a daughter, whatever it might be, or a father and a son, and we could go downtown and we could make a very similar purchase, probably for at the same price, maybe a little bit less or maybe just a little bit more, and we could truly support the American dream. But those people, their stories, haven't been captured, at least that I'm aware of, and the fact that you took the time to capture the story of your mom and dad that you can share, continue to share with the world is a very powerful thing.

So thank you for doing that brought up in a consumer culture is that we forget that this is about relationships and that this is about connection. And those choices are deeper than a price, and so there is energy that's transferred in that transaction with that particular person, who may know your daughter's name, who may have gone to the same school as you, who is is rooted in the community, who is supporting the community, who's paying taxes in the community. They are involved and you involving them only supports yourself and the community. So, yes, it is about American small businesses, but it is about connections, and we don't have those connections with the big box stores. That's about being anonymous and that's only about price. And, as someone who's selling something that is a premium product, I can tell you it's not always about price. Yeah, someone who's selling something that is a premium product, I can tell you it's not always about price.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Thank you for that deep departure down memory lane there. I really appreciate it. But I want to talk about okay, you've built the product. You're starting to have success in the United Kingdom and other places throughout Europe. You just got back from Zurich for a big presentation which just the idea of being able to jet to Zurich or Paris is very envious for me. Ooh la la. But you said okay, we've got traction here, we see what's happening. We've got a quality product at a great price. Now it's time to come back to the United States and bring the product to the US. What was the moment that you said all right, let's go tackle the US marketplace?

It's always been there, Sid, and it's always been on the plan books. But I think what you're asking is well, why now? Was there a tipping point? Was there a trigger? I think it came from views from the United States our website requests for information. It came from having meetings back in November and December last year when I was in Manhattan and meeting with architects and meeting with dealers and them saying well, let me know when it's available in the States, I think we can sell this, and so it was built up and it was building up and it probably wasn't a trigger point, but I think an opportunity came up to be included in the Indeal Champions League and I took that opportunity. So I guess that was the first step that we made into the United States was with Indeal.

I heard you say you noticed through your analytics and your website and through requests, that a lot of people from the US were visiting your website. 

And then you're getting requests to reply to and then you basically said, okay, I'm going to come to New York and talk to a few people. And then you validated through dealers and architects that it is a product that people would embrace in the United States. And then you discovered Indeel, who is a longtime partner of the Trend Report and a customer of mine, and you basically worked with them to attend their Champions Conference, which was in Chicago this year. So you got to meet a lot of dealers, a lot of dealer designers and champions inside those organizations, as well as other manufacturers, as well as other manufacturers. And then you said, okay, I'm going to hit the big stage and you positioned your product inside of the Indeal Connections Lab on the 10th floor and showed it in various different places, which is where you and I had that chance to visit a little bit. So what was Neocon like for you? What kind of feedback did you get about the product?

It was fantastic and it was a positive continuation from the Champions Conference. Again, Kabin is a unique looking product. There isn't anything out there quite like it. Architects and designers love it. It's the type of object and I say object because it is very sculptural that can be positioned in almost any environment. Whether that be traditional is very sculptural, that can be positioned in almost any environment, whether that be traditional, modern, et cetera, et cetera. So the people that I spoke with were probably second or third. I was probably talking to them already before the Champions League. I talked to them at the Champions League and then I was reinforcing our commitment to being in the United States and distributing the United States and growing our dealer network and rep groups in the United States. So that was fantastic. There's nothing like a face-to-face, you know, explaining a product, letting people understand it on their own terms, but also having the guy that can probably answer every question they may have right there present with you. I mean, what an amazing opportunity. So it was fantastic, it was really fantastic.

We're doing a great job answering my questions. So I have no doubt that you can answer everybody else's questions, but I do have to take a pause because I do. I'm laughing at that. You're calling the Indio Champions Conference the Champions League. I think you've been in the UK too long and have watched too much football in the UK, because there is a Champions League football in the UK.

I am, I am, you're right, you're right.

I'm laughing at it. I thought it was funny. So, Walter, we're getting close to time. We have to wrap up, but I want to talk about a couple more things inside the product that I think are really unique. You've built out a really cool technology, for lack of a better purpose. You've got an iPad inside the booth that helps to control the booth, but it does something even more than that. A lot of people think, hey, when I go into a booth, I'm going in there to work and to be productive, but you're creating an experience, and part of that experience has to do with maybe I just need a few moments to relax, maybe I need to just get away from the world that's outside the glass door. So tell us a little bit about that iPad-ish and what you've got built into it, because I think it's really cool.

That's great that you're reminding me to talk about that, because I often take that for granted. But you know, Sid, when we have control over our space, when we are given choice of our environments, we become whole, we become satisfied, we become calmer, our anxiety decreases. And so what we have is we have an Android-based touchscreen in every cabin that controls not only the fan speed, it controls the lights. You can put the, you can put the entire cabin to sleep. If you want, you can Bluetooth to it so you can play your own music, whether that be mindfulness music or jazz or rock and roll. But what's really interesting is what we put in called moods and a mood system, and the mood system goes from the sound and the visual of a cafe.

There's a lot of people love to work with background noise and they love the sound of a cafe, a barista shouting out. It's very subtle and it plays in the back of your head and you imagine yourself. If you were to close your eyes, you would imagine yourself sitting in a proper cafe. Then there's another one sitting on a train looking out the window watching the telephone poles go by over a southwest expanse with the sun going down, and so you know another one is looking out the plane window with puffy clouds and just hearing that low, monotonous, dull sound of an engine. And so these are choices that we make to be in places that we consider productive, or ours time to focus, time for being.

And then, like you said, it's not always about work. So maybe it's about reading a book, maybe it's about shutting your eyes for a couple of minutes, maybe it's just pondering, maybe it's sketching, but the table we even have in here is an articulating table that you can push away from yourself, because it's not always about work. It's about taking time, it's about retreating, it's about recharging and it's about resuming. And there aren't enough places in offices, hospitality, airports that we have for those places. We don't have enough of them.

I totally agree with that. There's a lot of research out there and I hear a lot of people talking about it today, about the importance of taking time to just wonder, like to just really let your mind go, and there's so much, so much that can come out of it. There's business ideas, there's program ideas. You can figure out how to grow your business if you just took the time to relax and, for me, stare out at the lake and watch the water. I mean there's so many options to that. But I will say my favorite sound that I heard while I was there is the raindrops. Yeah, I just love the sound of rain.

Rain is my favorite as well. I agree with you 100%. And it's funny. You know, spending 25 years in California, you know we thirst for rain, right? Every year there's always a drought. And then, moving to London, people laugh at me because I put rain on, because it's always raining, right.

So people just laugh.

My guys know Walter's been in there. It's on rain. No, that's funny, funniest thing yeah.

So, Walter, I'm really excited for you. It was a pleasure to actually meet you and spend some time with you at Neocon, because we did spend a little bit of time together. 

I love the product. I really appreciate you coming and sharing not just your story but the product story, the story of your family, the story of bringing the product to the United States. I'm super excited for you and looking forward to following along all the success that you're going to, you and your team are going to create here in the United States. So appreciate you being with us today. If our community would like to get in touch with you, Walter, what is the best way for them to do that?

They can email me.

Awesome. We will be sure that the website address, email address and the LinkedIn is down in the show notes for both Kabin and for Walter. Please remember, guys, if you do reach out to him, let him know. You heard him here on the Trend Report. That's why you're reaching out. Walter, thanks again for joining us.

Outro:

Thank you for tuning in to this conversation today. Go out there and make today great, and we'll see you again right back here in a couple of weeks. Take care everyone.