Intro: 

Hey friend, welcome back or welcome to the Trigger Fork. I'm excited that you're joining me for today's conversation. I'm Ted Meadows. I'm a business advisor, coach, and longtime student of the office furniture industry. And as you know, my goal is simple to share information, resources, and tools with you that help your business grow and help you grow and help you move forward each and every day. And I'm excited for today's conversation as we dive into yet another CEO chat with Karen John of Heartwork.

Sid:

Hey Karen, how are you today?

Karen: 

I'm doing great. Thank you, Sid. How are you?

Sid: 

Oh, I'm doing great. Thank you. It's early in the morning, which I love morning podcast recordings, so my energy is always really good in the mornings, but I'm really glad to have you here today. I've heard about you for quite some time. I've heard your name mentioned a lot of different circles. I'm like, I have got to meet Karen John. I got to have her on the show. So big shout out to my friend and business colleague, Michelle Warren, for connecting the dots. Wonderful. Yeah, she is. She did a podcast takeover a few weeks ago. So I trust her. I let her take over my podcast. So, Karen, I kind of want to break the show today and our conversation into a couple of different parts. And I want to start with you first, then dive into a little bit of like the behind the scenes or get to know Karen just a little bit. And one of the things that my research told me and that we talked about in our pre-call was you were very well traveled. You went to school and you studied at UCLA, and then you moved to Florence, and then you moved to Milan, and then you came back to Stanford. I mean, and you speak multiple languages. So tell me a little bit about what was the catalyst that said, I want to travel the world and experience different aspects of the world for you. What was the driver for you?

Karen:

Well, I think like most people in design, I think I am very curious. I also think, you know, design is about making things better. But at the end of the day, it's for people, right? And how we live. And I think traveling is just like, I don't know, it's it feeds me so much. But I mean, I came from a small town in Northern California and I've got to credit my parents actually, who always were supportive of travel. So as you mentioned, I was at UCLA. I was always interested in design, but I didn't really see growing up like, well, what role would I play? What does that mean? And so when I was at UCLA, I actually studied art history because the design department was really the art department. And I knew I wasn't an artist.

Sid: 

Yep.

Karen:

And so I did see this program called Italian Design in Florence for the summer, like you mentioned, which really was, I think, a pivotal moment. I went over there and in that course, we ended up visiting Milan and we visited uh Michele De Lucchi, Antonio Citario, Torres Otsas, and Mario Bellini, which I mean, again, each of them are such amazing designers. But what hit me visiting these studios, listening to them talk about their work, I was like, wait, this is not happening in the US this way. And it was a combination of, I think, the role of the designer, which I would say, you know, again, at that time, this is a while ago, was very multidisciplinary, which was different than in the US. So in the US, if you were an architect, you did buildings, if you were a designer, you were an interior designer, they were all separate, right? If you were a graphic designer, you're a graphic designer. Over there, I saw like touring these studios that like they were designing the product, they were designing the showrooms, they were designing the marketing materials, they were designing the factories that these products were built in. And I think that was so interesting. But then what I also saw for the first time, and I'm not even sure I really knew what to call it, was I felt like they were like literally like strategic business thought partner for the brand. And so don't laugh, but having come from art history, I was like, oh my God, it's like the Medici's with like the artists, Michelangelo, all these different people. So like I think um that really struck me. And I went back, did my senior year, and then I went back right away. And for the summer, again, I was lucky my parents were taking a trip. I think I took a trip and then I said, I'm gonna go a couple of weeks early. And I ended up interning. But anyway, I think that first trip, yeah. I I just got back from Europe. I went to an amazing conference in London for a couple of days, and I was in Amsterdam for a couple of days, and I was just reminded since the pandemic, I haven't traveled as much. Oh, yeah. And just how much I love it. It just feeds you. I think it's it makes it brings such optimism, I I feel like.

Sid: 

I would agree with that.

Karen: 

Connect with people, they're so nice everywhere, you know?

Sid: 

Yes, they are, and there is so much to see in the world. There's so much good that the world has to offer, and I think we should all go explore it.

Karen:

And you see different things, right?

Sid: 

Yes.

Karen:

Seeing things a different way is so, again, I I keep thinking of the word like it's like satiating.

Sid: 

That's awesome. So, what did you end up getting your degree in?

Karen:

So my undergrad was in art history, and then I went to Italy. And then I, after I interned with Antonio Chetero and Terry Duan, they were studio Chitterio Duan, Terry, who was American architect from Yale and Rice, had gone over with her Fulbright. And she kind of pulled me aside and said, if you're really interested in design, you need to study design, you need to get a degree. You're artist researcher. Like I, and um, and so I went to Domus for the year, which was a master's, and I think I was the only person who hadn't had like a formal design undergrad. Yeah. And I I've got to be honest, I think those first like crits I did with like Andrea Bronzi, who's like one of the grandfathers of Italian design, who um unfortunately passed like pretty recently. I mean, I think I probably cried afterwards. I just wasn't used to that. Like, why are you doing this? You know, the yelling and the shouting and stuff.

Sid:

Right.

Karen: 

But I learned, you know, even to today, I feel like that year, learning design that way was so amazing. I think it really informs how I look at not and and also that kind of limitless approach to design. Like design is not just the product, it's how I think about what kind of business I want to make, right? How how I want to talk to or connect with people in our community, et cetera. Like you really see, you know, what they coined, like design thinking and things like that.

Sid: 

But and your master's degree is in what's your master's industrial design and industrial design, got it.

Karen: 

Yeah, and it was great because you know it was a year, but it was very unique. There was only like 25 people, I think there were three Americans, and so very international. And the courses were not like quarters or semesters. It was literally like Alberto Alesi would come in and do a project with you for five days, or Rolf Elbaum from Vitra would come in and talk about Vitra for a couple of days. So it was a combination of like lectures and projects with real industrialists. So again, that was really exciting for me to hear and feel.

Sid:

And yeah, no, but you've also been exposed to some amazing leaders within the design industry and the product industry as well. I mean, wow, what an amazing experience to be taught by some of these people.

Karen: 

Oh, yeah. And I mean, we even had like Bruno Munari, who was like artist designer, and Akili Castiglione. And I mean, honestly, it really was amazing. I was so fortunate. And I didn't know here I was like this young girl from you know, Stockton, California, that it just happened to take a summer course through Satchi in Florence and changed everything.

Sid:

So when you were there, were you thinking about what was next? Like with the art history and an under and a master's degree in industrial design, what was it that was gonna be next for you?

Karen: 

Yeah, no, I mean, I have to really credit Terry Dwan, who I worked for who's, you know, a friend now, but at the time, you know, was really kind of a mentor. And the fact that she really kind of pulled me aside and said, What are you gonna do? Do you want to be an architect? She's like, let me tell you, there's like 10 famous architects. They're all men and they live a long time. Like, you gotta really like architecture. And and and the funny thing was, I I never really gravitated toward architecture. I love it, but for myself, but what I did gravitate to was product. And I think it really was the scale of product. I liked the human scale of product again, being super curious about people and life and all that kind of good stuff. And I saw firsthand in Italy kind of this the beauty and the let's say what really drove Italian design that was so different to me was that relationship between design and manufacturing. So, you know, these designers were worked very closely with the manufacturers, understood the engineering, you know, when uh Antonio Chattero designed with cartel, like the engineers, they were, it was so collaborative. And that just wasn't happening in the US. Then it's something I carried with Heartwork, right? Like part of the reason, there are many reasons we manufacture in the US, but one of it was really to keep stay close to that design and manufacturing. And I saw that when I was at DWR later because you know, you realize that a lot of these big retailers were really working through agents. And so they were literally sending like sketches with a target price to an agent who was going to a factory. And that's not really where innovation comes from or really where value comes from, right?

Sid: 

I mean, if you've ever been to a real office furniture manufacturer, I think one of the best parts about going to a factory is going into the factory and seeing the craftsmanship and the art for that matter that goes into the manufacturing. Now, I'm not talking about mass production manufacturing. I'm talking about like what you're describing in your period. We see a lot in the United States where you go in and they're still sculpting wood, right? Wood being steamed, being expanded and you know, glued together just the way everything happens. That's a beautiful thing to be able to see and to experience. And I think it really gives you a completely different perspective about what it is we actually do when you see the craftsmanship and the art. And some of these people that work at these factories have been there 50 or 60 years doing the same thing. It's just beautiful. It's one of it is generational too, passed down to their children. It's beautiful.

Karen: 

I completely agree, Sid. And I find it Rob, who's founded DWR, used to say, like, making good product is hard, right? Like it really is. And and I I always thought from the beginning too, when I started Heartwork, like just focus on making, like make a good product, and then the business will come, right? And so we stay very focused in storage, and that's another story. But I think going back to the point about the manufacturers, I agree. I I find also it is hard. And you just have such appreciation when you're in any factory and meeting the people, and like you said, seeing them with their craft and just recognizing and appreciating everything that goes into everything you make. I mean, I always say, even to my team, like, just think how many people had to make, like how many thoughts, like what goes into everything that we take for granted? It's so easy to walk through any environment and forget every single decision. And of course, obviously we're in design. So we do do we do see that and we think that. But I think there's just I have enormous respect for for the makers. And again, my love for or seeing the value of design and manufacturing being close really came from my Italian experience.

Sid: 

That's awesome. So traveling the world gave you some insights into what you wanted to do next, gave you respect for design, led you to product, and through the course of your career, you ended up at DWR, or as we as we call it, but as it's known, is design within reach. So you're at DWR. How long were you there? And what did you do?

Karen: 

I was there like six or seven years. I was hired to do product development. They didn't have product development at the time. So, you know, they had had a lot of success. They were working with these really impressive manufacturers who were in their own right brands, right? So they weren't like contract OEM manufacturers, they were brands. So they had a really good understanding of obviously design, but also like package testing and everything, right? All the marketing. And they were growing and they started to also get new requests from their clients in the US. And there was kind of this opportunity that Rob saw for DWR to start developing its own product, but really working with these like established manufacturers. So I started as product development, and then over time I took on merchandising as well.

Sid:

Okay. So at what point during your journey did you say to yourself, I'm gonna start a manufacturing company and sell furniture?

Karen: 

That's a good question.

Sid: 

That's a huge decision, right?  

Karen: 

Yeah, I think I always knew I wanted to start my own business. I think I was in furniture for a long time. And quite honestly, when I left design within reach, I moved to New York. And I was actually kind of thinking, oh, you know, maybe I should start a company in a totally different field. I did two years in tech in between after Stanford before going back into furniture. And um, I was always inspired by the creativity and the entrepreneurship. And I think it definitely was like a big part of the inspiration as well. But at the end of the day, I came back to the fact that like I know furniture, I love furniture. I went to a conference in the Netherlands instead of going to Milan that year because I was kind of deciding what to do. There was a new conference called What Design Can Do. And it was so cool because they were looking at design again, not just at furniture, but through, you know, healthcare and education and agriculture and all these things and through a much broader, bigger lens. And I there actually was Olivia Ortoscani, who was like the creative director of Benetton, who was a teacher at Domus when I was at Domus, gave a talk about his manifesto of design. And I don't know, all these dots connected, and I'm like, I just can't leave this industry.

Sid:

Like, this is really what I like.

Karen:

And there was an artist, a Dutch artist, that had done this whole research on how people spend so much time in the office and all these things. And about that time, I think Casper was launching their mattress and saying, like, you spend 20 years of your life in your bed, you should buy a new mat, a good mattress, and I'm like, and like 30 at the office, right? And I think we had always at DWR kind of struggled with finding enough product for uh workplace. And so that's kind of when I realized, yeah, I was gonna do it. I didn't immediately think, oh, I'm gonna be like a manufacturer brand. I think at first I thought kind of similar to DWR, well, what if I were kind of building more of a platform? We were selling the workplace furniture and just making that easier. And I think what DWR did so well was really curating and editing that process. And because, you know, versus I think happens today is you can go on Amazon, you can find anything out there, but do you really have time to sit there and do that? Not necessarily. So anyway, long story short, I realized though, when I looked at the market that the product, there's a lot of product, but you can imagine because we know our industry, if I made a phone call and I said, hi, could I sell a couple of your, you know, let's say quote unquote chairs, they'd be like, uh, well, you got to take all of the chairs, like the whole assortment. Like, we're not gonna let you just sell a couple of them. Yeah. And then they were like, also, okay, so how many clients do you have? And what's your marketing budget? And I was like, okay, this is gonna be really hard. And so that kind of I realized, let's just do a proof of concept. And I decided to start with storage really because I felt like storage was really being looked at as a commodity and not as a design solution.

Sid: 

And you started Heartwork in 2012?

Karen:

Yeah.

Sid: 

Okay, 2012. Yeah, and so so let's let's say a couple of things here, but like I want to go back to something you said a minute ago. Being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart. No, it's so money, there's so many ups and downs and struggles and challenges. You described a couple of them, but I would like to like ask you, and then we'll dive into a little bit about hard work. What do you think's been your greatest accomplishment in building the business?

Karen: 

First of all, I think we make a great product, and I'm very proud of that. But I would say personally, my greatest accomplishment and not my easiest by far. Maybe that's why it's my greatest, is I feel like after it's almost 14 years, right? We have a really good team and we have really great partners, and that feels really good. And I think, you know, a lot of people leave corporate and think they're going to be an entrepreneur because they are like fed up with, you know, the way things work, right? And I had some of that too for sure. And I was a little humbled when I started my own business and realized, oh God, this is hard. Even at a small scale, this is hard. Like this is, and you kind of like embarrass, like, oh my God, what am I not doing right? Like all these things. And I think that at the end of the day, though, that's probably something that makes me happy and also gives me energy.

Sid: 

Yeah. Well, it's important to remember, and for you listening, it's important to remember every company, every manufacturer, every solopreneur like me, every consultant that you meet, every dealer that you meet, everybody has a day one. We all have a day one. And when we look at our companies on day one, and we look at our companies on day 12,000, it's important to understand the growth that has happened and what you've accomplished, what you've overcome through those processes, because it's a lot of learning. It's a lot of taking what you learn, it's a lot of bumps in the road and setbacks and perceived failures to really try to propel your business forward. So, and now here you are all these years later with this thriving, successful business. So let's dive in just a little bit. Who is Heartwork? What do you do?

Karen:

So we design and manufacture modular storage solutions. They're flexible, they're adaptable, really allow people to do their best work from anywhere. So originally started focusing on commercial. Right. I thought originally that would be small, medium businesses. I had this romantic idea that people were all quitting their job and they needed hard work because like, come on, you got to be surrounded. Most people go to IKEA. And I realized early on we were getting calls from like, you know, the Nike, Google, Gensler. And that really opened my eyes to a much larger commercial than than I had explained or expected. And was also go back to like why I like to travel. I mean, I like newness, right? So I think that was a newness for me. Sure. Because design within reach, a lot of our commercial was really just like lobby, lobbies and classics and stuff like that. So so I had to learn. That was a learning curve. Yeah.

Sid: 

So tell me about the name. Where did the name come from? Heartwork.

Karen: 

So yeah. So I think again, when I started Heartwork, I realized the reason I wanted to start a business was I wanted to create something bigger than me. And what I mean by that is not necessarily in size, but like back to like, you know, a great place where people would want to work, where partners would want to be partners, where clients would want to be clients, etc. But it was really based on this idea that, you know, I used to joke that like if everyone did what they loved, there would be world peace, right? And I think that, you know, design, what we and our colleagues do to design spaces really sets the stage for all the creativity and and growth that the design of space is so and place is so important and influential. So hard work is just the idea though, you should do something you love, your space should be as inspiring as your work. We used to say early on, one of my friends coined this uh that we still use, which is that it's designed for your pleasure and your productivity.

Sid: 

Okay, that might be that might be able to be spun a little, a couple of different ways. Maybe you don't want to, right?

Karen: 

So But I think it hits this idea that like we are in a in a category that honestly had been overlooked and thought of as you need file cabinets, you need a cabinet. Like, what do you need? And I think our goal has always been how do we deliver something that has high utility? Because people buy storage when they need it. It's not like a decorative, you know, ceiling fixture or something for a lobby. But we also want to deliver something beautiful. And so I think there's always that goal of like, how do we do something that has high utility and can be beautiful? Even if it's a simple cabin, it can still be beautiful. It could have nice details of craftsmanship. I feel like the way that we kind of fold and wrap, I always feel like it looks like we're wrapping a present with the sheet steel or the colors that we developed with Laura Guido Clark, who I know you interviewed, who's a deer friend, and I met when I was at DWR and kind of was one of the first people I called when I thought, okay, we're gonna do stories. Well, we're gonna need some colors because I looked online and everybody was it was gray. And I remember this was funny. I was online gray, black and white. Gray, black and white, and I I was looking for a supplier of colors that I could choose from, and I found this like when I Googled, it said something like 50 colors. And I was like, oh my god, 50 colors. This is it. And I clicked on the PDF and it opened up and it was literally 50 shades of gray. Like it was like it was like, and they were named things like dusk and dawn and smoke and you know, all these. Oh my goodness. And then that's when I was like, okay, I think we're gonna need to make some colors.

Sid: 

And so obviously it's amazing what color does to an environment, right? And how it makes you feel and the emotions that we will link down to the episode. It's way back, I think, in like the 30s or 40s. Yeah, but we'll link down to the episode in the show notes with Laura Guido Clark about love of good color, I believe is what the episode was called, but we'll be sure and link to it. But you forgot something. I want to go back to the name. Let's talk about the call you got from your mom.

Karen: 

Oh my God. Okay, yeah. So, like I told my parents I was starting a business. I told them it was gonna be named Heartwork, and I went to the gym in New York, I remember, and I came back and my phone was like blowing up with all these missed calls from my mom. And then I get this voicemail, and then she's basically like, Hi, honey, hi, honey. You know, your dad and I, you know, we're here and we wanted to call you because you told us about heart work, and we're just concerned that that might not be the right name. It sounds a little like a cardiology. My dad was a doctor, so I was like, okay. And we just think that, you know, you really might want to rethink this. And I've come up with some names for you, and I just want to just tell you, and then you can decide. It was like design your own work.com or now I'm not giving my mom credit because she actually is quite creative. And I will say that she gives a lot of unsolicited opinions, and we do adopt a lot of them because I'm like, oh, that's pretty good. But the names was not, they were all over the map. And fast forward, thankfully, she did in the past, like I don't know, even like five, eight years ago, said to me, you know, Heartwork, I really love that name. And I think the thing that I would say, just for anyone listening who wants to start something, if you wanting to start something for everyone to tell you that's a great idea, you can't. Like you are bringing something to life that no one is really visioning, like you hold that vision and you have to be able to go through that early part, whether it's like with investors saying no or different things, like they just don't see it. And that has nothing to do with all the great things went through that period. When everyone thought it was stupid, it's like, oh, why are you doing that?

Sid: 

You know, I think one of the things that I that I love about what you just said is I do appreciate how much courage that our family members have and just feel free to share their unsolicited advice, right? But I love it. And I love that it's such a great part of your story. I hope somewhere like you have that message recorded somewhere and saved on a memory stick or something somewhere. But I also think that one of the things that you just said was we do as entrepreneurs, as business owners, as builders, let's call us builders, right?

Karen: 

Yeah, yeah.

Sid: 

There is a thing of seeking outside validation that we really don't need.

Karen: 

Well, you really can't get, right?

Sid: 

Not the not the way you want it anyway.

Karen: 

Not at the beginning, right? Because if we're looking for that, like would mean like we want control over the outcome. And we can't, I mean, anything great is even, I mean, I think the best things that have happened at Heartwork are the things that even I didn't imagine. And so if you're always trying to control that, it's really hard to let a lot of the good stuff unfold. But it does take a lot of risk. I think I I finally recognize I'm pretty, I'm much more risk tolerant than I gave myself credit for, right?

Sid: 

And so sitting there thinking, like, oh, yeah, I this is whoa, okay, we need to that's a lot of I can so identify with every one of these and every business leader that we've talked to that have started something from the ground up has gone through all the same things that you're describing right now, all the decisions and the fear and the anxiety and the external validation. I mean, every one of us have gone through that at different levels. But Karen, what do you feel like is Heartwood's competitive edge? Like what's your competitive advantage in a marketplace that seemingly can be saturated with suppliers? And I air quoting saturated because I don't believe that's the case, but a lot of people do. So what's your competitive edge? What makes you different?

Karen:

We really focus on design and quality together. And so what that means, though, is that we are typically working with very large organizations, whether it's corporate or healthcare or education, where design and quality are required. One of our clients is Siemens and they have their head in North America. She said to me, you know, I don't want to overpay for a locker, but I don't want to replace a laminate locker in six months. And they're also looking, you know, they're responsible for, you know, if you if you think about another quote that I loved, I went up to Boston a long time ago and met with the man in charge of Boston properties at the time. And he said, you know, the fastest way to build culture is through design. And so if you think of that together, you're trying to build culture with design. So it can't be a commodity, right? It has to be. And you also don't want to like try to shortchange yourself because you're just going to be having to replace things which is costly and, you know, all that kind of stuff. That's really where we play. And so I would say that's also kind of informed why, because we knew that design was important, why we chose to manufacture everything in the US, because it really gives us that flexibility. And I think we also do a lot of custom. So not like a onesie twosie, like I need to fit this one alcove, although we've done stuff. But I would say really developing and co-developing, whether it's standards programs, or or ways to really kind of bring that vision that the architect and the client have to life. And I think that is a competitive advantage as a lot of the larger players who also do storage, but maybe don't have that flexibility to do that.

Sid: 

So well, I think also as a small business, being nimble is an advantage for you, right? I do for all small businesses.

Karen: 

Absolutely. I think that is such a under, I think I love being nimble. I mean, I I think I always sometimes I feel bad for the large guys. Because I'm like, I know they're smart people with way more experience and yet like the nimbleness is is so so nice.

Sid: 

So when you think about your journey in the last uh 13 years, 14 years, if you had to pick one or two things, what would you say are been your greatest accomplishments at Heartwork so far?

Karen: 

Well, I think I mentioned one earlier, which would have been the team. I think another one, just in the last few years, as we've a couple years ago we started to develop independent rep, I was able to go more frequently into lots of markets that I hadn't been in. I think when I hear people say, Oh, Heartwork, I love Heartwork. I mean, that I don't know. I'm still like baffled. I sometimes leave and I'm like, what is it? What is and so but I think it goes back to like, I love that for whatever reason and in whatever way, the intent that we've had, that we've been committed to, people get it and they understand it and they they like it. And I I think we it's not just the product, we try to design product that's easy to install, we get great feedback on things like that. But also I think, you know, look at we're this is not an easy industry. And so I think being a partner when things don't go well is like even more important. And so I'm really proud of that.

Sid: 

So there's something that you said there about discoverability that you being being discovered and you go into a market and you hear somebody say, Oh, gosh, we love Heartwork, we love your products, we love working with your team, right? And so I'm gonna say to the person listening today, if today is the first day you're hearing about Heartwork, that is absolutely okay because I only learned about them about a few months ago.

Karen: 

Oh, yeah. I mean, I still within actually, we had an event two weeks ago. This is a good example of learnings for me, Ethan, and a reminder about our industry. And we had some of the larger, very successful dealer teams in for the event. And there's one of the dealer teams that we work with a lot. Like I would say they're one of our top dealers in New York, which was one of our big markets. And there was a top salesperson who came in and he says, I didn't know hard work. And I'm thinking that is wild. Like I know I talked to all these people, but it is it is the way our industry is, and I think it also shows that our our industry is a lot on relationships, right? Yes. And I think you know, a lot of the ways that people go to market in other industries doesn't work in our industry. Yeah, right.

Sid:

Agreed. I totally agree with you. Well, I think discoverability is something that never stops because there's always somebody that can discover you and your company, especially. For small brands. Absolutely. Right. And I think it's fantastic that people are still discovering. So if you're listening and you're just discovering hard work, reach out and say, hey, like I want to learn more. Reach out to your local rep, right? And do that. So let's talk about the industry for a second. I want to shift gears again. Yeah, please. Big question.

Karen:

Yeah.

Sid:

Okay. What do you think the future of the industry is? I mean, it's a really big question. So feel free to answer it. Like, there's all this conversation about AI and the impact of AI. There's, you know, this there's just tons of stuff happening. So, like, if you had to pick one thing that you think is part of the future, what is it?

Karen:

I mean, first of all, AI is happening for everybody. And I'm actually very optimistic. I mean, don't laugh, but I do the first thing I know, the first thing I think of is all the stuff I do that I don't want to do. Oh my God, are you telling me someone else, something else, somebody will do this? This is fantastic. So, and I think that we're already seeing kind of grassroots ways to use it. And I think our industry has so much complexity in it, right? And it'll be so wonderful to see what kind of creativity and innovation happens when we can remove a lot of that complexity and can really kind of have a more direct kind of relationship between the people that are using the products and the people that are designing them.

Sid: 

So I think that I'm all for it'll be interesting to see if we actually embrace removing the the um complexity from our industry because we kind of thrive on the complexity. So I know that AI can remove it or part of it, but it would be interesting to see how we respond to it, right? So today is it's a Monday in September. When we're recording this, this episode will actually launch in October. And today there was an article in the Monday morning quarterback about Gensler and their use of AI and a video about how they're using AI to circumvent, I guess. I haven't watched the whole thing yet. We'll drop a link to the YouTube video down in the in the show notes. But it's about how they're using AI to create experiences for brands before they ever put a shovel in the ground. So you can see the entire space, you can see it being used, you can see people walking around. And I think that's fascinating about how it could inform design, right?

Karen:

Oh my God. Anything to make, I think, streamline and simplify the design build process would be great because that's where all the inefficiencies, that's where a lot of that budgeting, that's where all the frustration. I mean, come on, the core designers that have to redo things or the dealers that have to re-specify because of that AI could be used to streamline that way, I think would be great. And then their efforts could be more on.

Sid: 

So I'm going to say something a little sarcastic, but I actually mean it. And I'm going to say it for every furniture seller out there in the world. Hopefully, AI will help improve the process of building new or just redesigning existing to a level that they don't have to cut the furniture budget. They can cut something else, right? Because you we've all heard it. Oh, sorry, we've got to cut this furniture budget. It's in half. We can't buy that. We can't buy this. So please don't cut our budgets anymore.

Karen: 

Yes. No, no, I I I know. I thank you. That's a good point.

Sid: 

It's a little sarcasm and a little bit of a jab, but not really meant to be, because our budgets do get cut a lot. We're always the last in and the first cut.

Karen: 

Yeah, you're saying let's focus on quality.

Sid:

Yep, that's correct. So I want to wrap up, Karen. You've been on this amazing journey. You've done a lot, you've had a lot of accomplishments. Uh, we didn't get to talk about the Nomad Collaborative that you mentioned earlier, but I did talk about that with Natalie.

Karen: 

Thank you so much.

Sid: 

I'm super excited about that partnership of small businesses and you guys coming together. Uh, we'll also drop Natalie's episode down. Natalie from High Tower will drop the link down in the show notes for you where we talk about the Nomad Collaborative. But I want to I said to Natalie, and I'll say to you, I applaud you guys for doing what you did, coming together with other small businesses and creating an experiential space for people in the New York marketplace to actually come and see what all of you do. I think it's fantastic. And I think it's a best practice and a path forward for a lot of small businesses to come together and do those kinds of things. So good for you. But you've had this great journey, this amazing journey. I want to leave today with what's a piece of advice that you could share with somebody coming up in our industry, regardless of whether they're in furniture, design, and whatever aspect they might be within our industry, what piece of advice would you give them?

Karen: 

Oh, I mean, don't laugh. But the first thing I feel like I've been having this conversation with also a bunch of my friends, kids, and my niece that are all like graduating and going to college or graduating college. And I mean, I it hasn't been easy for me, but I will say at the end of the day, I've had to also really uncover and decide like, what do I really like to do? Because even when you start a business, you're doing a lot of different things. And at some point you kind of feel like you're burnt out because you're like, I'm supposed to love this, I'm doing this, but like, why is this not feeding me? And I think even I personally have had to go back to like, what is it that I really love? And I think I really love people and I really love design and innovation. And so, you know, I was just in Europe for the biofabricate conference, which was all about biomaterials. And I mean, I felt like so energized. And I feel like when you know, you know. And I would just encourage people to, you know, really choose. I think a lot of times people fall in love with ideas, but it's not what you're doing every day. And so they'll get a business idea and then they're like, why aren't I happy? Well, that might have been a cool idea, but it meant you're going to be doing XYZ 24-7 and you don't like that. So I feel like being really thoughtful about that. But, you know, again, not settling for not being able to do do something that really brings you energy and and that you feel good about. I mean, I like I said, the name's Heartwork, but it's taken me 14 years to even get clear for myself.

Sid: 

It's well, I think doing what you love to do, it's a journey. You're not gonna do it day one out of college. You're not gonna do it when you leave your first corporate job and go to your second corporate job, right? You gotta keep looking for it. I also think where you are in your journey of life, at the age that you are, what you love doing changes, right? And that's okay.

Karen: 

It is okay. And I would say one of the best speeches, I think, is Steve Jobs' commencement speech at Stanford, where he says, and I feel like I did this, like in the sense that I did always kind of follow what I wanted to do. It wasn't necessarily the most lucrative or whatever, but like deciding to go to Italy, deciding to go back to Stanford, deciding to go into tech, who would have thought people would have said, Why are you going into tech? I mean, that was one of the most amazing experiences for me. And he says in his speech, like, if you just at each kind of says the dots, when you look back, the dots will connect. And not to worry so much if you if you are, you know, making decisions around what you want to do. And I feel like even within Heartwork, I'm doing that more and more. And that is just so rewarding and satisfying. And I I'm always open to like coaching or supporting or talking to anyone who wants advice because I just feel like, you know, it hasn't always been easy. And I I if anything that I've learned can be helpful, then please.

Sid: 

Well, I have two things I want to say. First off, is what you just described was about mentorship and giving back. And I think it's really important for those of us that have been in our industry and in different positions and different roles to reach behind us and to help uplift the people coming up from behind us because we all had them as well. We may not have named them or think about them as much as we should have, right? But we all have a mentor, mentors in our life that reached behind us and helped us, right? I could start naming them for me. But I think when you talk about the, you know, when you're talking about doing what you love and really trying to find it, you're gonna know because there's a certain energy when you finish doing something, and for me, you know, you hang up the phone with somebody or you get off of a call with somebody, and the energy around it, I'm like, man, that was so great. I really love doing that. There are gonna be signs as you're trying to discover in your journey, like, what do you really love to do? There are gonna be signs. Just listen to those signs, listen to those feelings, listen to your gut, right? That and whatever that is, go do more of it.

Karen: 

Exactly. I couldn't agree more, Sid. I think you said it well, and I think you do it well. Like I could tell when I met you that this is something that not only brings you great joy, but I think what's so cool is like joy and success go together. And, you know, my dad used to tell he was uh OBGY and he delivered a lot of babies. He'd come in my room at night, and I remember him saying, just be your own boss and and don't ever worry about money, just be the best at what you do and you won't have to worry. And I think these poor kids these days, I can't tell you how many kids tell me like they're worried about money. And I'm like, you know, I guess I get it. I guess I'd be worried about money if my tuition was as much as yours, which it wasn't. But I think like unfortunately, to your point, kind of connecting with like what you want to do, and I think trusting that and same with this AI fear that people have, especially the young kids. It's like the AI is gonna do what AI can do, but we still need people to guide and drive and all that kind of good stuff. So yeah, probably very optimistic and I'm gonna stay that way because that's a great place to be. I don't want to live in a world that's.

Sid:

Karen I cannot thank you enough for joining us today and really giving us a little bit of insight into you, into Heartwork, your thoughts about the industry. It's been a fascinating conversation. I've enjoyed getting to know you. Karen, if our community would like to get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Karen: 

Yeah, they can reach me at Karen at heartwork.com. That's heartwork.com. And also on LinkedIn, I think is perfect.

Sid:

So we'll drop email address and website down into the show notes as well as the LinkedIn profile. Just remember, if you do reach out to Karen, send her a note when you go to Connect with her on LinkedIn and say, hey, I listened to you on the Trend Report podcast, which is why I'm reaching out. Karen, I appreciate you being here.

Outro:

For those of you that joined us today, thanks so much for being here with us. Go out there and make today great, and we'll see you right back here again in a couple of weeks. Take care, everyone.